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19 Jun 2021, 13:48 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 17:56 
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Company: Jet Acquisitions, LLC
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It seems that almost every day we hear a story or are competing to buy an airplane where the buyer isn't doing a prebuy.

What the heck is going on?

What is the motivation? To increase your chances of getting the seller to sell you the airplane?

If the answer to that question is "yes" then you might ask yourself why the seller would prefer to sell the airplane without a prebuy?

If it's to negotiate a lower price... bad strategy. You can't buy an airplane cheap enough to cover the potential cost of issues found in a proper prepurchase inspection.

If you are considering buying an airplane without a prebuy, call me so I can talk you out of it.

Just a couple of recent examples;

We currently have a King Air in prebuy with a six figure bill for airworthy discrepancies.

We just closed on a Mustang, full pre-purchase inspection at Textron Wichita AND we had our preferred flight test company do the test flight, guess what they found... a $69,000.00 windshield that had to be replaced.

We find something big and expensive on most of our pre-purchase inspections.

I'll post a link in Beech Turbines to a recent blog post with some King Air specific prebuy advice, but no matter what kind of airplane, don't buy it without doing a prebuy!

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 17:58 
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Which begs the obvious question...

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 17:58 
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Location: Burlington, NC
Aircraft: Bonanza V35B
If I were a seller, I don't think I'd want to sell a plane without a pre purchase. That way everyone knows what's wrong/right, and the buyer cannot come back on the seller for any liability/damages.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 18:14 
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The liability thoughts hit home with me. I wonder if, in a certain market, it would be considered a literal requirement much like what might be required in buying a house. Similar costs - why would a lender or insurance not want that "survey, title/logs search etc. And like a survey, could it not be re-used within a certain time frame and done say by the broker as part of their facilitation? Pretty sure they could make it part of the fee, so they aren't losing.

Sorry, I get crazy ideas once in a while. But would sure like to sit down and read listings with a pre-buy report attached to them.

:popcorn:


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 18:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
The liability thoughts hit home with me. I wonder if, in a certain market, it would be considered a literal requirement much like what might be required in buying a house. Similar costs - why would a lender or insurance not want that "survey, title/logs search etc. And like a survey, could it not be re-used within a certain time frame and done say by the broker as part of their facilitation? Pretty sure they could make it part of the fee, so they aren't losing.

Sorry, I get crazy ideas once in a while. But would sure like to sit down and read listings with a pre-buy report attached to them.

:popcorn:


Unfortunately on airplanes it gets a lot more complicated than that, especially when talking about turbines. I have considered the idea that someone could take a really desirable and hard to find airplane like a Mustang, an M2 or a Blackhawk King Air C90B, do a full pre-purchase inspection at a top level shop, complete with a full test flight and then have an auction where the successful bidder could fly away in the ready to go airplane.

It almost has to be a situation like that, otherwise the inspection gets old pretty quick.

Plus, it's not just a survey and a report of the results, anything the shop finds that is a airworthiness discrepancy has to be corrected. Most sellers will be very resistant to spending $20k on inspections and $100k on discrepancies and having $120k out of pocket tied up until the airplane sells.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 19:00 
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Username Protected wrote:
If I were a seller, I don't think I'd want to sell a plane without a pre purchase. That way everyone knows what's wrong/right, and the buyer cannot come back on the seller for any liability/damages.

"As is, where is."

If someone is willing to buy an airplane sight unseen, or without a prebuy, I'm not going to argue with them, and that signature below the above phrase ends any argument. There are plenty of people on BT who have done exactly that and claim that it worked out fine for them. Me? I'll pay for a prebuy.

Why not do one? In today's seller's market, maybe they think that if they don't move fast they'll lose the deal (which is probably right). It's a roll of the dice. As a seller, if I could avoid the hassle of moving the plane to some airport for a pre-buy that will take a week and maybe not produce a sale, you bet I'd do it. If I were a broker I wouldn't let my client buy without an inspection due potential personal liability and reputation issues down the road, but private sale, private buyer? Do what you want.

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 19:23 
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I bought my first airplane in 1972. I was just starting law school. I would have a lot of counting to do to get to the number of airplanes I bought without a pre-buy, but times have changed.

A lot.

Today, you are buying an airplane that is at, or nearing, a half century of use, by many owners, though many "shops", and lord knows how many penciled annuals.

Buying an airplane today is becoming a night mare.

That being said, I bought the 195 two years ago without a pre-buy. Good buy or bad buy, it was exactly what it was represented to be. Of course the engine was at TBO so, as long as it got me home, I didn't care. It got me home.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 19:47 
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Next is no marriage without prenup as alimony is no longer tax deductible

It’s cheaper to keep her unless you marry up.....


Take it from a discount Gigolo

:shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 19:53 
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I've bought three airplanes. The A36 I bought without a pre-buy has turned out to be the best experience of the three, but that's just the result of a series of three crapshoots.

I wouldn't buy an expensive turbine without a pre-buy on at least the engine(s), but in the piston world, there are plenty of cases where I can see myself buying another one without a pre-buy.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 20:51 
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It's sad when your KingAir breaks down and costs less than your last divorce!
Username Protected wrote:
Next is no marriage without prenup as alimony is no longer tax deductible

It’s cheaper to keep her unless you marry up.....


Take it from a discount Gigolo

:shrug:


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 21:02 
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Chip,
Do you find that buying airplanes that have been on a -135 certificate are less risky in a quick to no pre-buy inspection scenario? Or maybe asking in a different way, can you put more trust in the supposed rigors of -135 maintenance?
Are they generally better, safer buys or worse?

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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 21:40 
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In December I bought a '74 B55 baron sight unseen.

The previous 3 planes where I had called the owners had already deposits down. Prices were rising.

Plane cost about $100K. Needed about $25K in "surprise" repairs, which was actually at the low end of the range I was expecting.

Its a known gamble. If the plane had been unusable, I would have been unhappy but I wouldn't have starved.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 22:11 
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There's legally no such thing as a prebuy inspection. I've bought a few 172s remotely and paid for a prebuy. Some arrived with obvious squawks a student pilot could have caught.

A ppi is wise and could offer peace of mind but in general offers no guarantee.


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 22:19 
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Who is doing the prebuy?


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 Post subject: Re: QUIT buying airplanes without a PREBUY!
PostPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 23:32 
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Years ago a buddy sold a Citabria. The buyer hadn't even seen the plane in person, and apparently said something like "I buy and sell quarter-million dollar equipment all day long without inspections. This little plane is no big deal." Pretty sure my buddy delivered it for the buyer.

Fast forward a month and the buyer wanted to come after him because they found a big problem. Nothing came of it, except maybe the buyer learned you should at least look at a plane before you send a check.

I don't think there's much liability for the seller in most cases. I think you'd have to prove that information was purposely hidden.


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