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28 Mar 2024, 14:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 11:38 
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Joined: 10/18/11
Posts: 1026
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Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
how about a water tank? the question is do you have the room? water is much less dense than lead.

in my Bee it is common to remove the front weight and use 1 gal jugs in the front storage compartment to get the CG within range when flying solo


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 12:52 
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Joined: 04/06/11
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Aircraft: Warbirds
Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any incite on adding Permanent Ballast on a 12,500lb aircraft? Legally

Aircraft is a Citation 550. Just had Columbia Avionics dual G700's with all the goodies installed. now aircraft needs 150 lbs in the nose to get CG to come out if flying with crew only. looking to add permanent ballast so they never have to worry about it.

Sam,

I just had Columbia do my Citation V (well, it is still there). Got 382 lbs lighter (which implies they removed ~500 lbs of stuff!).

CG moved rear a lot, now I need 200 lbs to fly solo (or 50 lbs to fly two pilot). Even with ballast, the plane is lighter overall.

I'm working on ways to improve this. On the V, the oxygen tank is WAY in the back, I am seeing if I can move it to the nose which would cut about 70 lbs from the ballast I need. Here is where I would put it:
Attachment:
560-0149-oxygen-bottle-size.jpg

An Ultra oxygen tank will fit there nicely. I'm still working out who can do the work and what sort of approval is required.

I am surveying anything else I can take out of the tail. Not much I can find to remove at this stage.

I am also looking at fixed ballast, easiest is lead plates bolted to structure up front in the nose bay. Downside is that when you have a full load, you can't take them out.

If I can get it down to 100 lbs removable ballast, that will be close enough. When I have a full cabin load, I can then take it out and get those 100 lbs back.

Mike C.

IMHO I would add whatever min weight that covers all the bases and use shot bags as needed at other times.
Permanent is, well, permanent, Weight will need to be marked as such and do not remove .
Water in an A/C that flies at high altitude isn't a very good option where it can freeze. Jugs can break or crack and your ballast will flow away and cause damage to other parts and corrosion.
AC43-13-2B is an A/C that is FAA approved for data in some cases. It deals with Alterations and addition of ballast. At least it gives some background for acceptable ways of doing this.
In my past dealings with some of the guys working out of the Lockheed Skunkworks they introduced me to Spent Uranium. Very dense and used in Some Military A/C for weights to balance flight controls. Also makes a great bucking bar. You pick up a bar and it weighs significantly more for the size of the material. A small bar held with a couple fingers in a crevice worked very well. Might also be why I glow in the dark.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 14:14 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
Post Likes: +23612
Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
My Citation V that had the JetTech version of your panel needed an 80lb lead brick up in the nose. 150lbs is no bueno! I'm surprised they didn't do this for you.

If JetTech didn't remove ALL the dead wiring, then the change can be far less. Cessna says the stock avionics cable assembly on my airplane weighed 226 lbs, and that does not include trays and connectors, so that's a huge amount.

If JetTech didn't do an actual weighing of the airplane, just a mathematical W&B adjustment, it can also be way off, particularly for a mod that is so invasive and all the little bits missed on the adjustment. I recommend you get the plane weighed. You may be operating out the aft CG limit and not know it.

My mod removed ~500 lbs of stuff and put in ~120 lbs of stuff, net 382 lbs savings. That number is from actual weighing before and after the work so they are real. CG moved back a lot as expected.

My current nose ballast requirements are 50 lbs for 2 crew and no passengers, 200 lbs solo. Any sort of cabin load reduces this very quickly. Most critical operating point is empty fuel as fuel CG is always ahead of the aft CG limit at all loadings.

My goal is to move the oxygen bottle to the nose avionics compartment. That has the net effect of about 70 lbs of ballast, so saves 70 lbs of takeoff weight, and also gets the oxygen lines out of the rotor burst zone of the engines.

One thing I do worry about is tail heaviness while parked. This makes the plane to tail sitting due to snow or ice load on the tail. I will try to find a tail stand solution for this that I carry (in the nose, of course!). A tail heavy airplane is also more apt to be blown around by the wind. That is what got Judge Judy's Citation X to tail sit. Keeping the plane fueled will help, but you don't always want the plane loaded up that way.

I need to find some more things to take out of the tail. The damn CVR is ~30 lbs and way back there, but alas, I am required to have. Sigh. Maybe there is a modern lightweight version that isn't a king's ransom?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 14:18 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
No way I'd be bolting on that much weight without evidence it can be there.

The same structure that will hold the ballast weights previously held the avionics. So the structure should be fine since it already handled that weight.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 22:48 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Mike, if you can’t get the tank moved, these work great

https://wakeballast.com/products/wakeba ... gLeA_D_BwE

Two 50s fit under my front seats. Easy way to keep 200lbs in the plane. If I have a full load of people on a trip I toss them in the truck during pre flight. Super durable and a great built in handle.


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