19 Apr 2024, 07:15 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 12 Apr 2021, 21:27 |
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Joined: 10/14/14 Posts: 1734 Post Likes: +1896 Company: Corporate Air Technology
Aircraft: Pa28-235
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More Politicly correct people would call it a Bagel Buggy. With the Astra coming later as the Kosher Comet.
More correctly it could be called an airport weed abatement program they were fairly notorious for fuel leaks in the wet wings.
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 13 Apr 2021, 05:19 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2530 Post Likes: +1254
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Username Protected wrote: If the Westwind is like many other jets with TRs, if you leave your hand back there and there is an unexpected TR deployment, when it snatches that throttle back to idle, your hand will be in the way. Not good for your hand.
Robert T Several years ago a pilot in the Citation II Sim at CAE DFW had his had broke when the instructor deployed a TR and the throttle snatched back. CAE changed the sim so the throttle would not snap back so hard. I could see it happening in a abort also. I was told that the Citation 500 was the first airplane that was required to have the throttle snapped back with an uncommanded TR deployment. The Falcon 20's and Saberliner that I flew did not have this. It was not approved but you could deploy the TR's in the air. The requirement came after Continental Airlines lost a Sabreliner coming out of Montrose. CO. in 1973. http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R73-19.pdf There was an accident involving a Citation years ago which was the result of an attempted go-around after the TR's were deployed. Tripped the load limiter and bye bye engine power. Load limiter can apparently only be reset on the ground.
https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19890227-0
Citation 500/501 Operating Manual for example makes clear not to advance throttle until the TR unlock light is extinguished lest you really screw things up.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 13 Apr 2021, 08:35 |
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Joined: 07/10/10 Posts: 940 Post Likes: +622 Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
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Username Protected wrote: More Politicly correct people would call it a Bagel Buggy. With the Astra coming later as the Kosher Comet.
More correctly it could be called an airport weed abatement program they were fairly notorious for fuel leaks in the wet wings. I always heard it as the "Bagel Bomber". And don't forget about the "Yom Kippur Clipper".
_________________ ----Still emotionally attached to my Baron----
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 13 Apr 2021, 08:41 |
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Joined: 12/04/09 Posts: 352 Post Likes: +149
Aircraft: Dakota
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Username Protected wrote: More Politicly correct people would call it a Bagel Buggy. With the Astra coming later as the Kosher Comet.
More correctly it could be called an airport weed abatement program they were fairly notorious for fuel leaks in the wet wings. I always heard it as the "Bagel Bomber". And don't forget about the "Yom Kippur Clipper". Then General Dynamics bought the Galaxy (G200) and Astra (G100) programs and developed the G150, All built in Israel.
Known to the proud workers in Savannah as "Gulfstein's"..
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 15 Apr 2021, 15:21 |
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Joined: 05/06/10 Posts: 1435 Post Likes: +707 Location: KMBO Brandon, MS
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This thread brings back a lot memories. The Lear guys used to regularly refer to the Jet Commander as a ”lead sled,” and other less complimentary names, especially after IAI came into the program (apologies to my Jewish friends). Our usual counter was that it was built for comfort, not speed. All in friendly jest. I never got to fly the 1123 or 1124 series so I can’t comment on them and don’t mean to hijack the thread.
Ours, (the last Jet Commander built, an 1121B, s/n 150) flew great but, loved a lot of runway. No flap t.o.’s to meet 2nd segment climb requirements were eye watering, sphincter squeezing events. The airplane was originally designed to be electrically anti/deiced and therefore was equipped with AC generators, converter regulators and was an electrical nightmare. IIRC, the loss of a couple of Jet Commanders due to inflight electrical failures prompted the requirement for peanut inverter powered standby artificial horizons on all jets.
I hated the Skydrol hydraulics. No trouble at all hand flying at altitude. Had good ramp presence, made a LOT of noise and went fairly fast (for the day) and, like all of its contemporaries, burned a LOT of fuel. But, at least our airplane, would climb straight to FL410 with no step-climb and cruised comfortably at M.73 or M.74.
Terry, regarding the requirement for AC power on the ground for maintenance purposes, our shop rigged up a device that one of a ship’s AC generators could be bolted to and turned by quarter horse power(?) standard electric motor. It was messy pulling the generator and coupling to the electric motor, but it worked.
Overall, maybe not the best of the first generation bizjets but, certainly no slouch. Enough rambling.
MM
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 15 Apr 2021, 19:52 |
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Joined: 01/10/17 Posts: 1693 Post Likes: +1161 Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
Aircraft: various mid century
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That’s a good point Michael, The cabin is more rectangular profile like a Kingair and not a round tube. The guys we flew were all shaped like linebackers and needed broad shoulder room. Lateral tracking seats were added and they liked them a lot. I liked them because it was easier to vacuum / clean and then slide the seats back in to the cabin wall.
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 15 Apr 2021, 21:20 |
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Joined: 08/09/11 Posts: 1732 Post Likes: +2053 Company: Naples Jet Center Location: KAPF KPIA
Aircraft: EMB500 AC95 AEST
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Username Protected wrote: More Politicly correct people would call it a Bagel Buggy. With the Astra coming later as the Kosher Comet.
More correctly it could be called an airport weed abatement program they were fairly notorious for fuel leaks in the wet wings. I always heard it as the "Bagel Bomber". And don't forget about the "Yom Kippur Clipper".
You guys forgot the Hanukkah Hot Rod, the Westbank Tank, the Rabbi Rocket, the Goldstein Guzzler, Bagel Bullet and Rosh Hashanah Row Boat.
Great airplanes. I have a pic of Robin Smith and my dad in the front of an 1124 somewhere.
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 27 May 2021, 10:53 |
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Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 8891 Post Likes: +1956
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Username Protected wrote: And financing available for 3.12 per month!
_________________ If you think nobody cares about you. Try not paying your income tax.
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Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets Posted: 27 May 2021, 22:28 |
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Joined: 10/31/11 Posts: 990 Post Likes: +638 Company: B777, 767, 757, 727, MD11, S80 Location: Colorado Springs
Aircraft: Thrush S2R, AC500B,
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Username Protected wrote: Was browsing around controller the other day, wow the westwind series of jets are cheap! Seems to be a pretty capable aircraft, must just be crazy expensive to run. Also appears there is no single pilot ops with them.
Looks like you can be the proud owner of a 20,000lb 390kt 2900NM range jet for under $400,000. I believe you misunderstood. That is to fill it with JA under the Biden sucks energy program.
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