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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 08:32 
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these are great stories! thank you for taking the time to write and share.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 10:48 
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Charlie, did you know Robin Smith?


Not Charlie, but I knew Robin. Flew with him a couple of times.

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 11:02 
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Back when I was a line guy, the crew for a westwind called in on the phone and asked for a top off. No prob, I went out to the airplane, pulled all the valves down and topped her off. Turns out the crew didn't want a real top off, just a partial top off. They were spitting mad, but they should have been a little more specific.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 15:41 
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Before the Westwind was the Jet Commander, it had less fuel and straight jet engines. I've got maybe 15 hours right seat in one. I remember one trip we went from Bar Harbour to Las Vegas and had to stop for fuel twice. From what I remember it would get up to FL410 easily and cruise near MMO. I think MMO as around .75-.76?

We took it to Cabo once for about 5 days and airlined our wives out. Picture below.

Attachment:
N1121A.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 15:58 
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Before the Westwind was the Jet Commander, it had less fuel and straight jet engines.


I remember the 1121 being horrible to work on, at least for avionics. Some of the avionics were above the fuselage tank behind the aft pressure bulkhead and I once got stuck there. Had to remove my belt to get back out.

The 400Hz busses were powered by wild AC to 400 Hz AC converter, so it meant you couldn't power those systems on the ground without an engine running, or by bringing out a 28V inverter on a cart. I learned how to start an engine to get the bus powered. The 1123/1124 had 28V powered inverters.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 20:12 
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Charlie, did you know Robin Smith?


Sorry Erwin I did not. But I remember the accident.

I believe the investigators never figured why a reverser was unlocked. They started a go around very late into the landing with I believe the mains on the ground or very low. I’ll have to read it again.

If they had been using the technique taught in Flight Safety and what we also used they would have been rolling in full up or near full up pitch trim right to touchdown. Suddenly adding power should cause the nose to pitch down but if a reverser came out it’s possible the pitch change was up instead. The drag of the bucket open and the high mounted engines could be the combination. Nosewheel should be on the ground before the reversers are used on a normal landing.

The accident report mentions later testing another airplane in flight where a reverser was opened in the landing configuration and even momentarily adding power to that engine. (There is a cable snatcher that pulls power back if the reverser opens in the air). But I did not see it mentioned that the test fight was done in that configuration from the very slow airspeed and also in ground effect. I wouldn’t want to test it there either.

The reverser airflow could have a local effect on the inboard section of the flap in that spot or with the engine inlet so close to the wing trailing edge the one engine at takeoff power could be giving suction to the airfoil on that side and when the snatch pulled the power back on the engine with the reverser unlocked it was suddenly a loss of lift on that side.

It is very rare to go around that late in the landing. I think they just got the perfect combination. If the new pilot was flying they might not have expected the big changes in pitch forces. Here’s a link to the report. Sad to read.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20140618-0

The Westwind operator community was very small. It was interesting to meet people and they would always wonder your serial number. Some would say “Oh that was so and so’s airplane or that was bought new by XX company” There were people at Flight Safety that really knew the airplane. Every wire switch and serial number change. Great resource to call.

Electrical was the weak point. Just random odd glitches and things would work one day and not the next. Once we had double com failure going in to Indianapolis. I tried to get the coms working but no luck. So we flew with a handheld radio VFR up to Kalamazoo to get it fixed. After that we had an external antenna jack installed for the handheld. Pilot flying would randomly say “Com failure” and whoever was not flying had to get the handheld out, tuned to the correct frequency and plugged in within 1 min. It was ready to go behind the seat so this was possible.

Funny tidbit was I had to wear slacks and hated freezing on the ramp getting ready to go in the winter. We made a couple trips to south FL each week during winter. I’d wear long underwear under my slacks and then when I landed in FL it was 90F and high humidity. I was probably the only one in the state of FL wearing long underwear. Frequently we would refuel and return with a different group so I was only on the ground long enough to get fuel and loaded. Then we were back headed for home and below freezing. It was odd. Grey overcast winter days and I’m slathering on sunscreen before I left home. But it’s sunny at altitude.

Ground handling on takeoff could be squirrily. Tiller wheel figure 8 cable and hydraulic steering with high and low sense took some getting used to. Copilot holding wind corrections until captain took the yoke. That would be the biggest problem if you wanted to fly single pilot. Or we transferred control totally if whoever was in the right seat was flying they just started out with control of the pedals while whoever was on the left steered the tiller till about 40knots. The Narrow main gear was not a problem but once in a while if you touched down gently on the mains and the lift dump panels were a little late coming up the airplane could dribble or walk a little side to side between the mains. As soon a the spoilers came out it would be planted well. You had to have memorized the breaker location of the nose wheel steering on the overhead panel if the figure 8 tiller cable broke pulling the breaker would release the nose steering so differential brakes could work. Took a lot of power to turn but it worked. Stuff I have not thought about for a long time. It’s been fun to revisit.


Last edited on 12 Apr 2021, 05:50, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 05:46 
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Before the Westwind was the Jet Commander, it had less fuel and straight jet engines.


Quote> I remember the 1121 being horrible to work on, at least for avionics. Some of the avionics were above the fuselage tank behind the aft pressure bulkhead and I once got stuck there. Had to remove my belt to get back out.


I can visualize that Terry. The wings did not come off and the spar was held in with “wedge pins” no bolts. I never saw what the wedges looked like but there was a lot going on between the aft cabin and forward baggage wall. The Westwind had most of the com and nav boxes in the nose under zipper curtains but there was some stuff in the back too.

I have seen a few jet Commanders but they were not flying. The RVSM kind of eliminated them unless they could work around higher or lower. Another generation of avionics earlier. Makes you wonder how much weight could be shaved off an old jet airframe with modern avionics. We are updating the late 70s E90 Kingair and I weighed the removed boxes and parts 196lbs. If you could remove the inverters and wiring it would be even more savings. Now where the CG would end up is a good question.

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 10:30 
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[youtube]https://youtu.be/0zF9wo2nEyg[/youtube]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/W15cO8wlg9o[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 13:22 
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great video. Nice to see the old stuff in operation.

Two things I didn’t like. I’d like to see the Captain not flying keep one hand behind the power levers on the the quadrant base to back them up on takeoff. I never had one creep in the Westwind but a few times in the Kingair so it’s just a habit if two pilots are in the cockpit flying.

On landing he reaches up to the reversers before touchdown. I’d keep my hands on the power levers only until the mains are on the ground.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 13:29 
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If the Westwind is like many other jets with TRs, if you leave your hand back there and there is an unexpected TR deployment, when it snatches that throttle back to idle, your hand will be in the way. Not good for your hand.

Robert T


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 14:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
great video. Nice to see the old stuff in operation.

Two things I didn’t like. I’d like to see the Captain not flying keep one hand behind the power levers on the the quadrant base to back them up on takeoff. I never had one creep in the Westwind but a few times in the Kingair so it’s just a habit if two pilots are in the cockpit flying.

On landing he reaches up to the reversers before touchdown. I’d keep my hands on the power levers only until the mains are on the ground.



You're going to find a lot of pilots disagreeing on that!! Good way to have smashed fingers!

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 16:12 
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True it’s been a long time. Old piston and King air habits. If your the one not flying you have to move to put the gear up and back to the yaw damper anyway so probably was not there as much as I remember. Just for the time between V1 and gear up I never trusted them to not move. Not touching them but just kind of blocking from coming back and ready to make small adjustments if needed.

But it’s conventional teaching to both let go of the power levers totally. I think that is where a pilots transition back down to Kingairs is a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 18:20 
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If the Westwind is like many other jets with TRs, if you leave your hand back there and there is an unexpected TR deployment, when it snatches that throttle back to idle, your hand will be in the way. Not good for your hand.

Robert T


Several years ago a pilot in the Citation II Sim at CAE DFW had his had broke when the instructor deployed a TR and the throttle snatched back. CAE changed the sim so the throttle would not snap back so hard. I could see it happening in a abort also.

I was told that the Citation 500 was the first airplane that was required to have the throttle snapped back with an uncommanded TR deployment. The Falcon 20's and Saberliner that I flew did not have this. It was not approved but you could deploy the TR's in the air. The requirement came after Continental Airlines lost a Sabreliner coming out of Montrose. CO. in 1973. http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-fu ... R73-19.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 20:35 
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That was a really well written report. I never knew Continental had a Saberliner or read about that accident. I’ll keep with conventional hand placement if I ever get back in something like this. I remember they talked about it but not much about the speed of the snatch back if it came unlocked. I pictured a mechanical pull back not bang back to the stop but it makes total sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 20:46 
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Before the Westwind was the Jet Commander, it had less fuel and straight jet engines. I've got maybe 15 hours right seat in one. I remember one trip we went from Bar Harbour to Las Vegas and had to stop for fuel twice. From what I remember it would get up to FL410 easily and cruise near MMO. I think MMO as around .75-.76?

We took it to Cabo once for about 5 days and airlined our wives out. Picture below.

Attachment:
N1121A.jpg


Back in the day of political incorrectness and ethnic insensitivity, the IAI Westwind, built in Israel by Israel Aircraft Industries, was nick named "The Jew Canoe."


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