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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 05:07 
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Now, if they could just STC the Westwind as an SP, we'd have a winner.

Please start a thread for this, Adam, so it gives the rest of us who want an Avanti a chance too!
:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 06:50 
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Haha yes not too glamourous. But the saga to get to fly corporate was different years ago.

Once they kinked the relief tube they used the sink instead. But it would not drain on the ground unpressurized. So I had to take rolls and rolls of paper towels and dip them in to let them soak almost to the top and then quickly flip them over and run the length of the cabin to pitch them out the door. All while it was 95+ and soaking humid in coastal Georgia.

At home I had to dig out a man hole cover and pry it open with a length of rebar to dump the john because the FBO did not want me carrying it through. Had a barrel of blue juice to refill and mix with water. Fun in Kakis and dress shirt.

The grinder would get used tampon material wrapped around the shaft and on the road the only way was to get in there and dig the tangled mess out.

We had a diabetic client and I had to remove every piece of food and replace with all sugar free stuff before each trip he had and then restock everything after. I had to find the Jewish neighborhoods to grab the newspaper truck because it went there first and get papers before the FBO had them for our early departures. Once I got an ass chewing for swapping all the chocolate covered cookies for Animal Crackers which matched the carpets. Got chewed out “These are Creme De La Creme of local society you can’t feed them Animal Crackers!!" Too late to switch back as we taxied out I heard the cabinet click “OOOH Animal Crackers” They ate every box. After that it was “Make sure you have those damn crackers. They will be expecting them now” Don’t run out of Scotch while holding on the ground after a football game at South Bend. Your name is mud. It was almost a riot situation . I squeaked out “But there is plenty of Vodka” No good. Had to have a tin of Altoids in place on the captains seat before every trip. I kept a WB program on a palm pilot for ramp checks but it was all BS. Load the cabin and go. CG was only a problem when totally empty on a reposition flight. At first we had some shot bags but later gave them up too. Less weight = more freight.

We never washed the airplane for 3 years I just cleaned it with spray wax all day every day on the ramps and on days off in the hangar. I stripped and refinished my own boots. Vacuumed and did the Jepp revisions.

My instructions were to sweep the hangar under the airplane to absorb the dripping fuel so the airport operator would not kick it out of the hangar.

Once the MX shop did not tighten or cotter pin the pushrod to one nose gear door. I forget which. So the doors did not sequence and the nose gear smashed them into the well. Gear unsafe light and wind noise. Since we were on the road when this happened I pulled the gear doors off and then found a couple pallets and bought hammers at Sears. I smuggled it all into the hotel room through the lobby and up the elevator. Then I started banging away. It was getting late and I could hear the hotel staff running around. Looking through the peep hole when they were across the open to bottom floor lobby from me I would start banging again. Then go quiet till they ran by. Eventually i got the door straightened out and then decided to touch up the paint for some reason. I carried a kit with Jetglow in it for touch up. Well that sucked into the hotel ventilation and the whole place smelled up. I was a little loopy next morning but I lifted the mattress and in the lower box part of the bed threw all the paint cups, hammers and pallet parts. Then I slid each door one at a time up the back of my jacket and headed out. Reinstalled the doors and we flew home. New scrap yard set of doors was the permanent fix.

I had just gotten my IFR rating before I ended up in the right seat of the Westwind. Warrior and KX170B, Beech Travel Air I had one solo IFR trip. Got home from school and ended up getting driven in a limo with the captain who was upgrading from an E90 Kingair to Flight Safety. Finished initial and we got a ride in a Turbo Commander to Battle Creek to see the airplane for the first time. We flew around the patch three times. Took it home and loaded everyone in for the first trip to FL . He had seen it once and had a ride. I had never seen one in person before. We were the only crew. No sick days, no scheduled days off. On call 24-7. Just how it is. Usually had a rough idea 2 weeks out what was coming.

I ended up typed in it and flying left seat 3 years later. Big FAA blowup locally and the FAA told the owners that I was totally unqualified to be in the right seat of that jet. The owners came to me and said what do you need to fly it. I said a type rating and ATP. How soon can you be ready. I said give me two weeks.

So I finished my ATP written. Flew a Stinson V-77 down to take the written and they looked at me funny as i ran in to take it.

Flew back home and headed back to Flight safety. I passed the check ride and took my ATP ride at the same time with an examiner that used to be a test pilot for Israel Aircraft Industries. No problems and he had some good tricks and systems work arounds.

After that they made a point to have me in the left seat to stick it to the local FAA inspector that was watching. We were ramp checked 7 times in one month. I locked the feds out of the airplane one day.

There was a lot more to the story behind the scenes but It just shows the airplane is very manageable even without all the electronic assists and protections of a modern airplane. It might snow in the cockpit from the AC and you might have to hit an occasional relay with a rock to get it to start but it gets you home.

The way it went captain got in the seat first and I loaded pax When last pax started up the step I pulled the rug and threw it out of the way. duck under the wing to make sure fuel pin was up and left engine was spooling. Last look at baggage doors and fuel door, under right engine and it started spooling up as I passed the right fuel pin. Chocks all out and last check of nose pin. I would jump in and flip up step. Close door and pax would be back to their seats. I’d hit the copilot seat with my finger on the yoke to call ground or clearance. If it was a ground frequency I’d always say N2345 is ready to taxi at the end of the read back. . Look to be sure it was clear right, hit the button for pax prerecorded brief to play and we were moving as I rolled in the first fixes to the KLN-90B. Corporate secrecy I did not know the routing before hand a lot of the time. Later as I got trusted I could file my own. I even had to change the airport search on the early computer weather screens in the FBO to some far away airport after I checked destination weather before I left the computer. If asked where we were going by anyone it way KMYB. Blocked from all trackers possible. So it was quick folding of prepositioned maps on the taxi. Never more than 2 panels open and work down checklist. We would take it on the roll to the end and always use full length. Usually no stopping between brake release on the ramp and takeoff roll. Gone....

What saved me was I had been an AP/IA and grew up with a lot of weird old airplanes so the systems and concepts were not foreign. The NYC IFR environment gave me fits. We were based in eastern PA. I used to keep charts and plates next to the john and all over the house to study every waking moment I was home to keep up with the situation .

At the time we did a lot of NDB approaches because they had lower minimums than the early GPS approaches. Before flying the Westwind if a map had a circle of airspace on it I just flew around. I hated talking on the radio. Never had one that worked most of the time anyway. Suddenly being thrown into flying into Boston, JFK, Miami, Chicago etc. Well I was pretty bad but it was sink or swim real quick.

Looking back it was a CRM disaster but I got through it and after that I prefer single pilot all the time.

But the real glamorous stories are later in the Queen Air, 421 and Kingairs


Last edited on 10 Apr 2021, 08:10, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 07:29 
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Username Protected wrote:
Haha yes not too glamourous. But the saga to get to fly corporate was different years ago.


But the real glamorous stories are later in the Queen Air, 421 and Kingairs



:popcorn:

Should we start a new thread? Excellent stories that are very enjoyable.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 08:02 
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I grew up on a short strip (1900-2000ft) My father flew 310, 421, Tbone, Queen Air etc and I rode along. Get to the end and put the gear handle up. No runway left was standard procedure.

Fast forward to the Westwind and after a few times taking off hot and heavy from Naples FL.

I’m making calls V1 etc. Rotate came usually just as the far numbers were passing under the nose. After a few times of this the guy I was flying with looked over and said “Your not nervous about this. I said “Hell looks normal to me!” I said they say it will go on one. Bull sh#$% it won’t go on two engines at sea level

You would head over the gulf and it felt balanced on a pencil tip and you could slowly accelerate. but once it hit 200knots then things stiffened up and she flew quite nice. Up through the middle to upper 20’s and then back to the pencil tip feeling. Kind of like a loaded Navajo Chieftain at altitude. The Autopilot broke all the time or would start Pitching around. Once it was broken almost a year so I was the autopilot. It really helped and I felt in tune with the airplane finally. At altitude it was gently thrusts of the direction needed and then counter push to null out the rotation rate. Pitch and roll about the same at this point. The Collins FD was really nice. I really hated to later update the similar Sperry in the Kingair to Garmin. Like losing an old friend.

Oddly you could climb to an altitude heavy but not stay there as it would slow and increase AOA and then slow some more. You would have to go back down because it would step itself down in speed and up in AOA until stall probably.

Landing flare was not really a flare. I want to say about 128 knots usually Vref and then coming over the threshold pull the power levers back. AOA worked well. It would pitch up with the power reduction and if you flared you messed up. Standard was to hold the trim button and let the pitch trim roll to full up which was about the right speed for the flare and it could land the mains well. Lift dump spoilers up Then let the nose come down and flare with the yoke. After that reverse. I wondered what happens if you have to go around with full up trim rolled into the jackscrew but full power would pitch down the nose. Never had to find out for real. It may be a possible factor in a Westwind accident a few years ago where they crashed just off the runway on landing.

The whole landing was very similar to the Lake.

Later this airplane they sold the engines and it flew one last time to a scrap yard and the wings were sawn off. Sad end for her. There was a lot of life left in that airframe.

The airplane was built to perform and do a job. Go well in a straight line hauling a load. Pilot just needed to adapt and know how to handle it. Classic Ted Smith design.

Light piston twin to Jet the speeds are faster but the runways bigger and longer. It’s all proportional and the same sight picture. Process and ATC are about the same. Turboprop or big geared supercharged piston twin is higher workload for levers to pull and things to watch. Start of the Garretts was easier than the PT6.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 08:30 
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Great stories, Charlie! :thumbup:

BTW, how can anyone say they look bad? Look how squat and low they sit. Those slightly slanted tip tanks just make it look like it's going fast already. It's as if a hotrod shop got a hold of a jet, lowered it and made it into a lead sled! ;)

[youtube]http://youtu.be/qAKS2ElM0OQ[/youtube]

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Last edited on 10 Apr 2021, 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 08:50 
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Joined: 09/29/10
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The military and airline pilots have the glamor. The corporate and freight pilots have the stories. Thanks for the posts, Charlie.

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 08:51 
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Awesome stories CG!

After reading first and scrolling up to "like", and then seeing the second post, I just "liked" before reading. Knew it was gonna be good!

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 10:02 
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Great video. They use every inch available at the start of the roll. Good reason too.

I liked the look of the airplane. Pax now get turned off by the low ramp presence and no boarding ladder to climb up and turn to wave Nixon style to the fans on the fence.

Another story. One time in FL an engine would not start. I forget the exact problem but it would not work through the start sequence. We decided to go to lunch at Red Lobster and were talking about the problem.

A guy cleaning tables next to us came over and said “I overheard your conversation and I know how to fix your problem” Ahhh Ok.

He identified what box and how to fix. So we called the home MX base and said “This guy at Red Lobster cleaning up the table knows how to fix the problem”

Turns out he was correct and the back story was he worked in Wichita in certification for Cessna and had a nervous breakdown. He was living in FL with his sister and studying for a Real Estate license while working as a busboy and washing dishes.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 10:05 
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Hey Charlie,
The “you can’t make this up” thread is over in BabbleTalk :D


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 10:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
.. airline pilots have the glamor.
:scratch:

Yea I don’t know about that. Maybe in the 1960’s. Today, it’s more like:
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Image
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Image
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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 12:31 
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Great video. They use every inch available at the start of the roll. Good reason too.

I liked the look of the airplane. Pax now get turned off by the low ramp presence and no boarding ladder to climb up and turn to wave Nixon style to the fans on the fence.

Another story. One time in FL an engine would not start. I forget the exact problem but it would not work through the start sequence. We decided to go to lunch at Red Lobster and were talking about the problem.

A guy cleaning tables next to us came over and said “I overheard your conversation and I know how to fix your problem” Ahhh Ok.

He identified what box and how to fix. So we called the home MX base and said “This guy at Red Lobster cleaning up the table knows how to fix the problem”

Turns out he was correct and the back story was he worked in Wichita in certification for Cessna and had a nervous breakdown. He was living in FL with his sister and studying for a Real Estate license while working as a busboy and washing dishes.


Charlie,
Enjoyed your stories this morning with my coffee. Well written and entertaining. You need a few more chapters to turn this into a book!
Kevin


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 13:59 
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I am glad corporate aviation isn't like that any more, except for a few old school holdouts.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 06:21 
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Glad to supply something entertaining. Here are a few more Westwind related

One of the first trips was to the Cayman Islands. We flew to Grand Cayman from PA nonstop. I rented a raft and had it shipped to us. Not much good because I figure any off airport landing or ditching is not going to be a survivable event.

Anyway flying down over GA we get instructions to hold from ATC 30 mile legs. It was so backed up in FL at that time before RVSM that a long enroute hold was needed. Luckily only one time around but it really kills the range.

At that time you paid for a Cuban overflight permit and I believe wrote the check to Castro. Below Miami Havana asked for the code and you rolled it into the transponder. I’m not sure what happened if it was wrong? Over Cuba looking down it looked like dirt roads and huts. Not much going on.

Below Cuba we started a step down descent into Grand Cayman. They did not have any radar but there was a VOR on the island. So you were assigned a DME arc to fly and the Controller would ask your radial. You could say 330 20 mile. “RRRiiight” would be the only reply. Then “N124 fly the 10 mile arc etc. Everyone was moving Counter Clockwise around the VOR. I thought it was a pretty neat system as long as everyone had good DME.

Anyway we get in close and there was a Navy E-2 turboprop just behind us. We get in the pattern for the single runway which has no taxiway. An Air Canada 767 taxies to the end and just sits there. We are on a long base and watching this and they are not moving. We get on final and the tower is urging them to go. In about as urgent as anyone gets down there. The 767 replies with “We don’t have our load numbers we are not set” Sheesh why wait until your blocking the only runway for miles to announce that. So we go around and get vectored back towards the arcs. Lot of arguing on the radio and I see the Navy airplane dive for the waves and head straight out to sea on the deck. Fuel is getting more critical now and finally Air Canada leaves and we get on the ground. Diverting at altitude is easy but climbing back out and loitering low burns fuel fast. This is where you could get in trouble fast. Climbing back out is different than just diverting. Cayman Brac island has an airport too but I forget the condition at the time or if it even had fuel.

Later the handler met us for customs. Universal I think was the service. Walked through customs and I see bribes move, We had extra catering which we gave to them and it was all smiles. I saw the importance of using a handler in any country other than Canada.

The Navy guys showed up in line behind us and said “We saw it was getting messed up and figured it was best just to get the hell out of there!"

Later I managed to call the wife. We were living in an old trailer on the airport at the time. I had not installed the skirting very well and it was blowing off in the snow storm they were having. She was pregnant with our first son and my income starting out was low enough she was collecting food stamps and the government cheese. She had no sympathy for me that I had gotten some sand in my dinner sitting on the beach watching the ocean and the top of my feet were sunburnt. I had burned up every extra $$ and borrowed using a Sallie Mae loan to get through ratings to get to the seat I had. How it went back then. As I’m writing this She also just reminded me I needed a spoon to fix the jammed Lav because the only spoons we had onboard were plastic and I used one of our set someone gave us for a wedding present. I had a metal one packed with my lunch. One spoon down.

She also just reminded me (I think i brought up a sore subject) that it was supposed to be no overnight trips and she would bring my son to the hangar after I was gone 2 weeks. Throw me a new bag of clothes and I would be gone again for 2 weeks. Later with survey work and Alaska work it was the same thing. Never started out that way but seemed to turn into it each time. She is a good sport though We’re still together after 28 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 06:49 
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The Westwind fuel system was fuselage bladders, wet wings and tips. There were fuel pins you would pull by the wheel well to allow fuel into the tips. Pressure fed single point fueling.

The pin tips were painted orange and barely visible from the cockpit. The pins were pushed back up after fueling. The tips were opened in flight with an overhead switch and lights to indicate transfer. I was surprised the wing skins when slapped felt like a waterbed when full. And cold fuel condensation on the skins and fuselage after landing in humid FL surprised me.

The wet wing could get a leak that would migrate under the fiberglass leading edge cuffs that changed the airfoil from the old Jet Commander wing which I guess the same ribs were still inside? The fuel could puddle behind the boot and make a fuel blister under the rubber deice boot. Any rain or weather and the boot dressing flew off and you had to reapply or strip and redo once it got built up.

The trim system had jackscrews moving the whole horizontal tail. The normal procedure was to pause after any trim input before trimming back the other way if you overtrimmed to allow the jackscrew and motor to stop and not wear the clutch mechanism.

We did not have an APU and 99% of the time made battery starts. Sealed battery new each year. FBO relations had soured so we minimized the usage of anyones equipment.
This worked fine but we were very limited with battery usage during preflight. To this day I see people preflight airplanes, put flaps down and turn on all lights and walk around with everything on. I cringe at the battery usage. I know LED lights are not drawing anywhere near as much now. I used a handheld to check atis before the pax showed up. Otherwise I’d here yelling from someplace on the ramp... Click noise of master... "Your not killing that battery are you? !! every time.

In Colorado there was Grand Junction and Denver. Everywhere else we tried to stay out of.
The owners new if we went anywhere else the fuel weight to get home nonstop would be too much. We were supposed to leave Denver at 7AM. I fueled in the cold morning and we waited. Pax showed up about 2 PM. All day I had buckets under the tip NACA vents and was totally sore and pissed off from having to repeatedly hit the top of the wing to reseat the vent which would stop the flow of fuel for a little while then pressure would unseat the float switches and it would start running again. you hit the top skin around the float and gave it a whack in the center to stop the fuel running.

Anyway we got them loaded up and took of on RW 8 It was calm but hot. Runway length was ok but as we were rolling and rolling I’m thinking of the true airspeed and the tire speed limits. Just then we drifted a bit and caught the flush centerline lighting. The vibration from that gets your attention quick. We lifted off and just kind of sat and waited. She cleaned up and slowly accelerated. We must have disappeared from view because after a while the tower called. N21DX you guys ok out there? Oh we are fine just getting a little speed here... But she gathered herself up and then started climbing away. Lesson learned again and the airplane kept quiet an did not do some quirky thing. It seemed to know when to behave.

There was a post earlier about old corporate ops. The guy I flew with came from flying out of White Plains with Rockerfellers. He said that in the 80s Gulfstream crews were required to sit in the rental cars the same way the flew. Captain drove. Copilot on the right.

We flew an very tall undertaker around who wore the old style broad black rimmed hat and black trench coat. He had no fingernails from embalming fluid and would just stand silent near the wall until ready to go. Very nice gentleman but it could be creepy if you did not know him. Another girl we flew had no eye pigment. kind of like a dog with a watch eye.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 08:13 
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Charlie, did you know Robin Smith?


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