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13 May 2021, 17:37 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2021, 22:58 
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Joined: 11/25/19
Posts: 51
Post Likes: +24
Aircraft: Aerostar 601P
Was browsing around controller the other day, wow the westwind series of jets are cheap!
Seems to be a pretty capable aircraft, must just be crazy expensive to run. Also appears there is no single pilot ops with them.

Looks like you can be the proud owner of a 20,000lb 390kt 2900NM range jet for under $400,000.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 04:10 
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Joined: 05/30/17
Posts: 101
Post Likes: +67
... for which parts can be very difficult to find and for which MX can be challenging, or so I am given to understand. The company that manages our aircraft in Houston owns and charters a Westwind. They bought a second one... as a source of parts for the first one! Another option along those lines is the Astra SPX (also sold as the Gulfstream 100/150).


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 08:07 
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Joined: 01/10/17
Posts: 720
Post Likes: +435
Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
Aircraft: Kingair E90
Flying the Westwind reminded me in a lot of ways of a Lake Amphibian. Pitch coupling with power. Especially in the landing flare.

Westwind can be heavy on the controls. Two handed on the yoke sometimes around the pattern. But it’s a solid feel. Mid 20s it really handles great. High altitude you feel sort of balanced on a pencil point when hand flying. Mid to lower 30s it’s happy. .76mach
I think I remember about 235 GPH in cruise.

The cabin door can be easy to damage or misrig. Don’t latch the door latch with the door open

We figured about $3600 hour to operate back in 2004. But lots of variables have changed since then. That was debt service on 1.6M Hangar, crew, MX, fuel, insurance, MSP Gold engine plan etc. About 300-400 hrs per year.

But it is a lot of airplane for the money. It’s no short field performer. 5000ft runway is bare minimum when loaded low altitude and warm with no obstructions. (Naples FL). Longer is nicer. Light we used to go in to 3400 ft strip for maintenance.

Solid machine with some odd quirks. Fiberglass cuff over the wing leading edge can run fuel leaks to different spots than the leak locations or puddle fuel behind the boots, Figure 8 cable on the nose gear steering will fail occasionally. Electrical gremlins are a constant trouble but can be usually worked around. Each airplane is an individual wiring project. Wiring diagrams looked like the Dead Sea scrolls and stored in a spot in the bathroom. Cycling all the circuit breakers in and out once a month seems to help.

100 landings from the main gear tires. I think it was about 250-300 landings out of the brakes. There was a shop in Elmira NY that would rebuild the brakes. It was about 20K to rebuild the brakes back then.

Fight safety used to do training but I don’t know if the sim is still operational or a course is offered.

Cropped fan blades from Garrett (installed by them under MSP Gold plan) can setup a shock wave in the inlet duct that will rattle them apart. There is an acoustical liner in the inlet that breaks down and the rivets will start loosening up.

Your low to the ground and moving at a real good clip on takeoff. Quite a sensation. Landing you land the back of the airplane then flare again to land the nose. All the while rolling in up trim. Takes some getting used to.

Getting down the isle with the potty tank and trying not to dip your tie in it is a real treat.

The gear legs need to be cleaned often and with gear doors on the inboard side everything shows.

Belly is low enough to the ground you can’t slide under on a creeper. It may be possible to swing an arc taxiing and drag the belly pressure vessel across ice chunks in winter and not know it happened.

Handles a good load of ice, it is a Part 25 airplane not part 23. Good baggage room especially on the I with two aft compartments.

Cleaning Skydrol sucks.

Fuel stains, seeps, drips are not leaks. Get used to it. Don’t fuel till your ready to go.
Don’t fill it and let it sit in the sun. It will fuel will expand out out the tip vents all over the ramp.

Finding a good one it might not be too hard to keep flying. A neglected one may be impossible to bring back.

A Westwind Burns more fuel and needs more runway than a modern light jet but with a lot more useful load and way cheaper purchase price. You can update a lot of avionics, move a lot of fuel, buy a lot of training, perform a huge amount of maintenance before getting remotely close to the difference between a 10M airplane and a 500K airplane. Figure money in and then back out.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 08:18 
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Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 972
Post Likes: +340
Aircraft: C180
Charter operation at FWA has half a dozen of them around at a given time.

Sleek
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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 08:36 
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Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 673
Post Likes: +316
Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
My dad flew a couple of trips SIC in a Westwind back in the '80's. They took it to Alaska and landed on a partial asphalt/gravel runway. Sandblasted the belly and took off a few antennas.

_________________
----Still emotionally attached to my Baron, but loving my Conquest----


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 08:56 
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Joined: 10/05/11
Posts: 7834
Post Likes: +4623
Company: Power/mation
Location: Milwaukee, WI (KMKE)
Aircraft: 1963 Debonair B33
The WW uses the TFE-731
Check out this chart.
http://www.aircraftbluebook.com/Tools/A ... gation=all


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2021, 12:59 
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Joined: 01/17/21
Posts: 14
Post Likes: +5
Aircraft: C550
When a Westwind was based at our field they had a spare tied down outside . Must have been the parts plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 00:03 
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Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 3680
Post Likes: +1482
Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
Getting down the isle with the potty tank and trying not to dip your tie in it is a real treat.


..... Livin the dream....

Honestly, once my son heard me mildly complaining about having to go and find ribs for the boss, 15 minutes before scheduled departure.... :pullhair:

He said you have to do stuff like that ?, I told him he had no idea... Livin the Dream
(retired now, wouldn't change a thing)

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/ Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 02:03 
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4928
Post Likes: +3840
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Always thought they looked like the bomb, but I'm a Commander guy, so...

From what I understand very few calendar items, so from an external POV looks like it could be a pretty economical jet to own. And the TFE's you can buy parts for at Walmart. Heard the brakes are crazy expensive.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 18:16 
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Joined: 11/27/16
Posts: 1230
Post Likes: +1938
Aircraft: B17,18,24,25,29,58,
It's the most bang for the bucks in the classic/vintage jets.

It's the cheapest to maintain. A few parts are difficult, but not impossible to find. Lots of engines out there. Brakes are expensive. Electric flaps glitch occasionally.

I'm told banks won't touch them. Usable airplanes are out there for some really low prices.

:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 23:18 
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Joined: 11/04/13
Posts: 180
Post Likes: +154
Company: USMCR
Location: Ardmore, OK
Aircraft: PA-46T, B100, Tiger
I just put my Westwind I under contract today. Had it for 6 years. Bought a B100 to replace it. Great plane especially if you’re not putting a lot of hours on it. Almost all maintenance is hourly based with very few calendar items. Brakes are getting cheaper. There’s a reasonable ADSB solution. It does take 2 pilots which was one of my factors to sell. There aren’t too many pilots left out there that stay current and there’s only one sim that still trains it. With insurance going crazy I wasn’t flying it enough to justify keeping it. Especially when I had to pay a pilot for every trip and insurance really upped the requirements for the SIC.


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 23:38 
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Joined: 07/22/14
Posts: 6719
Post Likes: +9534
Company: Mountain Airframe LLC
Location: Mena, Arkansas
Username Protected wrote:
My dad flew a couple of trips SIC in a Westwind back in the '80's. They took it to Alaska and landed on a partial asphalt/gravel runway. Sandblasted the belly and took off a few antennas.

I remember the first time I saw a Westwind. It was about 1990 here in Mena getting painted. The pilot had a similar sounding last name (as yours is spelled), and was flying to Alaska.

_________________
"Happy is the man who wants what he has".


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2021, 23:40 
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Joined: 07/22/14
Posts: 6719
Post Likes: +9534
Company: Mountain Airframe LLC
Location: Mena, Arkansas
Username Protected wrote:
I just put my Westwind I under contract today. Had it for 6 years. Bought a B100 to replace it. Great plane especially if you’re not putting a lot of hours on it. Almost all maintenance is hourly based with very few calendar items. Brakes are getting cheaper. There’s a reasonable ADSB solution. It does take 2 pilots which was one of my factors to sell. There aren’t too many pilots left out there that stay current and there’s only one sim that still trains it. With insurance going crazy I wasn’t flying it enough to justify keeping it. Especially when I had to pay a pilot for every trip and insurance really upped the requirements for the SIC.

Considering the recent popularity of 100s, I should advertise my new old stock rudder. It only fits 100s.

_________________
"Happy is the man who wants what he has".


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 01:28 
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Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 4928
Post Likes: +3840
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Now, if they could just STC the Westwind as an SP, we'd have a winner.

_________________
Slumming it in the antique turboprop world - so you don't have to!


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 Post subject: Re: Westwind Jets
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 01:38 
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Joined: 04/13/18
Posts: 118
Post Likes: +99
Username Protected wrote:
Flying the Westwind reminded me in a lot of ways of a Lake Amphibian. Pitch coupling with power. Especially in the landing flare.

Westwind can be heavy on the controls. Two handed on the yoke sometimes around the pattern. But it’s a solid feel. Mid 20s it really handles great. High altitude you feel sort of balanced on a pencil point when hand flying. Mid to lower 30s it’s happy. .76mach
I think I remember about 235 GPH in cruise.

The cabin door can be easy to damage or misrig. Don’t latch the door latch with the door open

We figured about $3600 hour to operate back in 2004. But lots of variables have changed since then. That was debt service on 1.6M Hangar, crew, MX, fuel, insurance, MSP Gold engine plan etc. About 300-400 hrs per year.

But it is a lot of airplane for the money. It’s no short field performer. 5000ft runway is bare minimum when loaded low altitude and warm with no obstructions. (Naples FL). Longer is nicer. Light we used to go in to 3400 ft strip for maintenance.

Solid machine with some odd quirks. Fiberglass cuff over the wing leading edge can run fuel leaks to different spots than the leak locations or puddle fuel behind the boots, Figure 8 cable on the nose gear steering will fail occasionally. Electrical gremlins are a constant trouble but can be usually worked around. Each airplane is an individual wiring project. Wiring diagrams looked like the Dead Sea scrolls and stored in a spot in the bathroom. Cycling all the circuit breakers in and out once a month seems to help.

100 landings from the main gear tires. I think it was about 250-300 landings out of the brakes. There was a shop in Elmira NY that would rebuild the brakes. It was about 20K to rebuild the brakes back then.

Fight safety used to do training but I don’t know if the sim is still operational or a course is offered.

Cropped fan blades from Garrett (installed by them under MSP Gold plan) can setup a shock wave in the inlet duct that will rattle them apart. There is an acoustical liner in the inlet that breaks down and the rivets will start loosening up.

Your low to the ground and moving at a real good clip on takeoff. Quite a sensation. Landing you land the back of the airplane then flare again to land the nose. All the while rolling in up trim. Takes some getting used to.

Getting down the isle with the potty tank and trying not to dip your tie in it is a real treat.

The gear legs need to be cleaned often and with gear doors on the inboard side everything shows.

Belly is low enough to the ground you can’t slide under on a creeper. It may be possible to swing an arc taxiing and drag the belly pressure vessel across ice chunks in winter and not know it happened.

Handles a good load of ice, it is a Part 25 airplane not part 23. Good baggage room especially on the I with two aft compartments.

Cleaning Skydrol sucks.

Fuel stains, seeps, drips are not leaks. Get used to it. Don’t fuel till your ready to go.
Don’t fill it and let it sit in the sun. It will fuel will expand out out the tip vents all over the ramp.

Finding a good one it might not be too hard to keep flying. A neglected one may be impossible to bring back.

A Westwind Burns more fuel and needs more runway than a modern light jet but with a lot more useful load and way cheaper purchase price. You can update a lot of avionics, move a lot of fuel, buy a lot of training, perform a huge amount of maintenance before getting remotely close to the difference between a 10M airplane and a 500K airplane. Figure money in and then back out.


You’ve painted a really glamorous picture here…


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