28 Mar 2024, 14:17 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 24 Mar 2021, 00:36 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2329 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: [youtube]https://youtu.be/FoQqOPGpzZk[/youtube] A lot of inaccuracies for such a short video. Statistics show the ball turret actually had the lowest casualty rate of any B-17 crew position (the position with the highest casualties was waist gunner). The ball gunner did have armor, his seat back. The B-17 ball didn't retract (the B-24 installation of the same turret did). Our ball turret says right on it what type of parachute to wear inside, although many gunners didn't as it made it even more cramped. And it wasn't the most effective gunnery position, none of the 10 (actually 12, due to ties) top scoring B-17 gunners were ball turret gunners, the most common position among the top 12 was top turret, followed by tail.
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 24 Mar 2021, 11:16 |
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Joined: 05/30/17 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +159
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Great post and very interesting. Thanks for posting and teaching us all something about these airmen.
My Uncle Jack was a B-17 navigator during WW2 (out of Italy - he did missions to Ploesti, Berlin and numerous other dangerous places, and he also met several Tuskegee airmen); he is 96 or 97 if memory serves, and I just heard from our family last night that he is "on short final" at home in Minnesota, and is expected to pass within a few hours or a day. How coincidental to see this post today.
We have lost most of, and are rapidly losing the rest of, the Greatest Generation and that will mark quite a page turn of American history. Which makes preserving the history of these airmen and their equipment all the more important.
When I got my PPL many years ago, Jack gave me his flight computer. Looks just like any whiz wheel you can buy today from Sporty's - and still works obviously. He flew his 25+ missions with it and it is one of my most treasured possessions.
Please take a moment today to reflect on all members of that generation who made sacrifices for all of us, and then lived humbly with that service for the rest of their lives.
Thanks again and fly safe!
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 24 Mar 2021, 11:55 |
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Joined: 01/27/18 Posts: 1653 Post Likes: +1514 Location: South NorthEast West Virginia :)
Aircraft: Club Archer
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Username Protected wrote: I just heard from our family last night that he is "on short final" at home in Minnesota, and is expected to pass within a few hours or a day. Bless your uncle and those like him.
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 24 Mar 2021, 12:53 |
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Joined: 09/29/10 Posts: 5681 Post Likes: +4872 Company: USAF Simulator Instructor Location: Wichita Valley Airport (F14)
Aircraft: Bonanza G35
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Username Protected wrote: [youtube]https://youtu.be/FoQqOPGpzZk[/youtube] A lot of inaccuracies for such a short video. Statistics show the ball turret actually had the lowest casualty rate of any B-17 crew position (the position with the highest casualties was waist gunner). The ball gunner did have armor, his seat back. The B-17 ball didn't retract (the B-24 installation of the same turret did). Our ball turret says right on it what type of parachute to wear inside, although many gunners didn't as it made it even more cramped. And it wasn't the most effective gunnery position, none of the 10 (actually 12, due to ties) top scoring B-17 gunners were ball turret gunners, the most common position among the top 12 was top turret, followed by tail. I wonder if the low effectiveness of the ball turret had more to do with opportunity than with the turret itself. Attacking fighters tend to dive from above to build speed and minimize time in range of the bombers’ guns. That would give the top turret more opportunities. A pure pursuit attack (guns pointed at the target) flies a curve that ends up directly behind the target. A fighter driving right up the tail of a bomber has a zero deflection shot but he also gives the tail gunner a zero deflection shot at the fighter, meaning the tail gunner might have a higher probability of an easy shot than the other positions.
The low casualty rate of the ball turret might be partly due to the ball turret gunner, being rolled up in a ball, was the smallest target in the airplane and therefore less likely to be hit. Waist gunners were standing up and there were two of them making them the biggest target in the airplane.
_________________ FTFA RTFM
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 24 Mar 2021, 22:42 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2572 Post Likes: +2329 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: The low casualty rate of the ball turret might be partly due to the ball turret gunner, being rolled up in a ball, was the smallest target in the airplane and therefore less likely to be hit. Waist gunners were standing up and there were two of them making them the biggest target in the airplane. Exactly. A lot just comes down to how much of your body happens to be in the way of some of the hot metal whizzing around. The top turret had the largest envelope of coverage, including frontal attacks, the B-17's weak spot favored by the Luftwaffe. The tail gunner's biggest contribution was less any planes he downed than deterring fighters from going for the easy shot from behind. Attachment: IMG_20210324_105808847.jpg Attachment: IMG_20210324_105833205.jpg
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 26 Mar 2021, 06:51 |
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Joined: 09/29/10 Posts: 5681 Post Likes: +4872 Company: USAF Simulator Instructor Location: Wichita Valley Airport (F14)
Aircraft: Bonanza G35
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<Pulls on flame suit and checks the seals and helmet carefully.>
Ok, I’m gonna catch infinite shite for this but here goes. There’s a movie streaming on Amazon Prime, YouTube TV and a few other streaming services called “Shadow in the Cloud” that features a ball turret on a B-17 and one of the prettiest young actresses I’ve seen in a long time. Most BTers will hate it and will say so loudly and vehemently in the posts to follow. I enjoyed it. But then, I like B movies with spirit. Wikipedia has this to say in the “Reception” paragraph:
“ On review aggregator Rotten Tomatoes, 78% of 112 critics gave the film a positive review, and the average rating is 6.3/10. The website's critics consensus reads: "Part creature feature, part war movie, and part social commentary, Shadow in the Cloud doesn't always blend its ingredients evenly—but it's frequently pulpy fun." According to Metacritic, which assigned the film a weighted average score of 66 out of 100 based on 19 critics, it received "generally favorable reviews".
“Nick Allen of RogerEbert.com wrote that the film was "a sincere but silly mash-up of WWII dogfights, gremlin chaos, and feminism in action," and gave it 2.5 out of 4 stars.”
“Frequently pulpy fun.” Yep, it’s that.
<Double checks fit of flame suit.>
_________________ FTFA RTFM
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 26 Mar 2021, 11:44 |
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Joined: 01/01/12 Posts: 248 Post Likes: +63
Aircraft: A36
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My Dad was a B17 pilot and during his training he had to fire the guns from each position. He had to really squeeze down the tube for the tail gunner position, but he said the belly turrets was really hard to enter. I do not know if he ever could get in , certainly not with a chute pack . Regards, Edward
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 26 Mar 2021, 12:47 |
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Joined: 05/30/17 Posts: 198 Post Likes: +159
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And kudos to your father for his service ...
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Post subject: Re: Sperry Ball Turrets Posted: 26 Mar 2021, 15:46 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 8705 Post Likes: +13324 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: My Dad was a B17 pilot and during his training he had to fire the guns from each position. He had to really squeeze down the tube for the tail gunner position, but he said the belly turrets was really hard to enter. I do not know if he ever could get in , certainly not with a chute pack . Regards, Edward That’s a really odd requirement. I could see some value to cross training crew members to be backups to other positions, but wouldn’t it be best to keep the pilot in the pilots seat no matter what? I am thinking, if I am a waist gunner and I see the pilot and copilot abandon their posts to go man the tail gun and ball, I am getting pretty darn nervous!
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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