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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 09:09 
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There are so many problems with the idea of us having and studying alien technology. Let's look at a few of them:

  1. How did we acquire these craft, especially the ones claimed to be in operational condition? Somebody handed them over as a gift? A defector from Ceti Alpha Six before it exploded? Engine trouble and and no planetary assistance plan?
  2. Entertaining the possibility of #1, how are we able to figure out how any of this technology works? Did the driver stick around and give lessons? The supposed quote on the internet suggests that we "know" that it works because all points in space and time are connected. Cool. Which button do you push to make it fly? This is akin to handing a monkey the keys to a Jeep and expecting him to figure out how to build and drive one after looking at it for awhile.

The likelihood that we could even begin to comprehend the way such an alien technology worked is next to zero. Like the monkey with the Jeep, how does he figure out how something as simple as the headlights work? He's never seen a wire, knows nothing of electricity; the association of the switch and the lamps is, as Arthur C. Clark would say, indistinguishable from magic, but now that he's figured out how to make the lights go on, he's going to duplicate the process somehow? What's he going to use to make the materials that go into the system? Tungsten for the filament? Halogen for the bulb? Wait a second, he doesn't even know that's a vacuum in the bulb or that there's anything special in it, so now he has to reinvent the light bulb. Vulcanized rubber tires? Cast aluminum wheels? We haven't even touched the engine, and that's just a car! Even if we entertain the notion that our benevolent visitor stuck around and tried to teach us how it all worked, it would take lifetimes of study in multiple fields of as yet unknown science to understand it, all assuming that the communication barrier could be overcome, and that the guest was able to live on our world for an extended period of time.

Almost certainly, the result of a true attempt to reverse engineer something so far beyond our comprehension would be a worthless pile of disassembled junk. So what if that's all too much and our monkey friend just shrugs and decides to drive the Jeep that he was given, how's he going to do that? Nothing fits, he has no idea how to make it go. He only knows what it can do because he saw it drive into the jungle when we gave it to him. Now what?

Then there are the questions that Fabien brought up about the (in)ability of the people surrounding such a project to keep it secret.

Finally, you have the practical aspect of making something from these reverse engineered vehicles. Boeing can't even get SLS to fly after a decade of work on existing, antiquated technology. You think that we're going to fly to the stars? Maybe that's why it's been sixty years without a productive result, but I doubt it.

This all comes down to some variant of Occam's Razor. Could it be incredible alien technology that we've reverse engineered? Yeah, it could, but it's a whole lot more likely that it's something that's much more mundane.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 09:22 
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Exactly. The military reversed engineered alien technology decades ago, but we still went ahead with the F35 project...and screwed it up? Seems a weee bit unlikely.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 09:59 
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If we knew aliens were out there and we had their technology, politicians would have trumpeted that news decades ago in service to their political ambitions. Politicians are terrible at keeping secrets.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 12:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
If we knew aliens were out there and we had their technology, politicians would have trumpeted that news decades ago in service to their political ambitions. Politicians are terrible at keeping secrets.


"Politicians are terrible at keeping secrets"

And just as bad at telling the truth. ;) A question is, how deeply held are the secrets of "black projects", Special Access Programs? How many involved in these projects have "the big picture", despite thousands may be working on them? It's unlikely that loud mouth politicians have any clue. But it makes one wonder, who does? There are people that are very good at keeping secrets.

Another question is that IF there are alien craft that some know about, could the public handle that revelation? I don't know of course, but considering the Kepler team study, there are 50 billion planets in the Milky Way, of which 500 million are in the habitable zone, what are the odds of other intelligent life more advanced than ours existing in this galaxy alone, when the total number of galaxies in the universe is estimated at 200 billion to two trillion. I think it defies logic to think that we are the only intelligent civilization , or the most advanced in the universe.


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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 15:08 
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Username Protected wrote:
Exactly. The military reversed engineered alien technology decades ago, but we still went ahead with the F35 project...and screwed it up? Seems a weee bit unlikely.


The US Space Command realm of operations starts at 62 miles above the earth's surface and into apace , far above the capabilities of an F-35.

Spacecom's mission : To conduct operations in, from, and through space to deter conflict, and if necessary defeat aggression, deliver space combat power for the Joint/Combined force, and defend US vital interests with allies and partners."

So it makes sense what we , the public knows about in the way of craft will not be what will be used in the Space Command's mission, and lends credence to a supposed quote by Ben Rich "There are 4500 people working at the Skunk Works. What do you think they have been doing for the last 18 or 20 years ; they are building something."

So there are likely parallel programs, sub space hardware development with some black projects, and the space hardware development, mostly or all black projects.

The subspace craft that were once black projects were eventually seen by the public in their realm of operation, but it's less likely the public would observe craft designed to operate in space, except for possibly their comings and goings.


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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 15:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Exactly. The military reversed engineered alien technology decades ago, but we still went ahead with the F35 project...and screwed it up? Seems a weee bit unlikely.


The US Space Command realm of operations starts at 62 miles above the earth's surface and into apace , far above the capabilities of an F-35.

Spacecom's mission : To conduct operations in, from, and through space to deter conflict, and if necessary defeat aggression, deliver space combat power for the Joint/Combined force, and defend US vital interests with allies and partners."

So it makes sense what we , the public knows about in the way of craft will not be what will be used in the Space Command's mission, and lends credence to a supposed quote by Ben Rich "There are 4500 people working at the Skunk Works. What do you think they have been doing for the last 18 or 20 years ; they are building something."

So there are likely parallel programs, sub space hardware development with some black projects, and the space hardware development, mostly or all black projects.

The subspace craft that were once black projects were eventually seen by the public in their realm of operation, but it's less likely the public would observe craft designed to operate in space, except for possibly their comings and goings.


France has had a mil space program for a little while, with the same sort of mission statement, we don't have alien tech laying around.

Also, strangely, the spaceship has only landed in the US, and you guys haven't shared tech or info about it with anyone?
Even if people are very good at keeping secrets...The work of the NSA was so outrageous that someone felt compelled, at great risks to their life, to leak it.
IF there were alien life, the implications would be so freaking huge that you could not keep it under control for long.

Also, let's say you have that sort of spacecraft. Every freaking launch is monitored. We can't launch Ariane V without a russian and US satellite overhead Kourou, and most likely one of your submarines around. Not to mention a few spies.
There are satellites looking all over the globe for the flash of a rocket igniting, like the DSP in your country. Of course Russia, China, France/the UK also have a few little toys like that.
And I'm not spoiling any secret when I say that we're not just looking at launchpads, we're looking at what's in orbit.

EXTREMELY closely. Because it's of the utmost importance that every little bit is tracked, to prevent a Kessler syndrome.

You guys have the Nasa Orbital Debris Observatory. We have the ESA Space Debris Telescope.
Ground and satellite based detectors, looking for everything in orbit.
And if ESA spots a shadowy, "stealthy" spacecraft in orbit, they are not bound by ANY duty towards the US or Russia, and it would be front page right away.
Not only because that would be the right thing to do, exposing that kind of black project, but also because: can you imagine the instant bump in their budget?

I'm sorry I'm not picking on you, Paul, and I would share your excitement at us having such tech (even more so because as a 30something pilot that would mean I still have a shot at it)...
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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 15:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Also, strangely, the spaceship has only landed in the US,


The aliens can travel across vast amounts of space and time, but their ships become unreliable when over large remote areas where the only humans are employed by the US government. There’s probably an entire facility full of aliens studying the problem trying to figure out what causes that anomaly and how to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 16:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
considering the Kepler team study, there are 50 billion planets in the Milky Way, of which 500 million are in the habitable zone, what are the odds of other intelligent life more advanced than ours existing in this galaxy alone, when the total number of galaxies in the universe is estimated at 200 billion to two trillion. I think it defies logic to think that we are the only intelligent civilization , or the most advanced in the universe.

The odds of intelligent extraterrestrial life are so large as to be all but a given. The question isn't so much whether there are more advanced species out there, but whether they have the slightest interest in us, are not hostile to us, and are stupid enough to leave some of their most advanced technology lying around where we can pick it up and start playing with it. I think those odds are vanishingly small.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 16:47 
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Username Protected wrote:
considering the Kepler team study, there are 50 billion planets in the Milky Way, of which 500 million are in the habitable zone, what are the odds of other intelligent life more advanced than ours existing in this galaxy alone, when the total number of galaxies in the universe is estimated at 200 billion to two trillion. I think it defies logic to think that we are the only intelligent civilization , or the most advanced in the universe.

The odds of intelligent extraterrestrial life are so large as to be all but a given. The question isn't so much whether there are more advanced species out there, but whether they have the slightest interest in us, are not hostile to us, and are stupid enough to leave some of their most advanced technology lying around where we can pick it up and start playing with it. I think those odds are vanishingly small.


It takes a little thought to realize the Universe is likely a "community" of civilizations. As earthlings, what have we done with less advanced civilizations on earth? We have brought technology to them to help them. We know that civilization on earth would parish when the earth burns up. It isn't out of the realm of possibility at all that other more advanced civilizations would like to see us remain part of the universe's communities and help us with their technology. If these assumed universal communities had the intent to destroy us, they could have done it a long time ago.

"Stupid enough to leave their most advanced technology lying around so we can pick it up and start using it."

What do we do when we help to advance civilizations on earth, as part of their development, at some point basic vehicles are introduced, not jets or space shuttles.

If alien craft have been "left lying around" it's highly doubtful that they are anyone's most advanced technology, but "basic vehicles" to get us out into the universe. The most advanced technology that we can comprehend would be teleportation, and time travel, without the need for such basic transportation as a space craft. That technology hasn't been left lying around that we know of.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 17:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
If alien craft have been "left lying around" it's highly doubtful that they are anyone's most advanced technology, but "basic vehicles" to get us out into the universe.

How irresponsible would it be to the peaceful interstellar community to allow humans, at our stage of social development to have access to the community at large? It would be akin to opening all of the cages at the zoo and letting the inhabitants roam the community. Anybody who did so would likely be in a lot of trouble.

Come here and visit to study us? I can see that. Get "caught" once in awhile in a stray sighting? Unlikely but possible. Be able to hide in plain sight so as not to be detected? Sure, if you can fly here like that you may well have such technology too. But then you're so irresponsible and or stupid as to allow us to get our hands on your tech? I don't think so, and if it happened, I'd be more likely to believe that the Ceti Alpha Seal Team would make the stuff "disappear" before we had a chance to play with it.

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 17:44 
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FIRST CONTACT will happen just like it did in the later Star Trek movie. The FEDERATION is waiting for us to hit a milestone and then we will be welcomed into the 'community'.

Let's just hope it is the FEDERATION that is monitoring us and makes first contact and not ALIEN or PREDATOR (or even THE THING -Kurt Russell's version of course!) :bugeye:


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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 18:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
If alien craft have been "left lying around" it's highly doubtful that they are anyone's most advanced technology, but "basic vehicles" to get us out into the universe.

How irresponsible would it be to the peaceful interstellar community to allow humans, at our stage of social development to have access to the community at large? It would be akin to opening all of the cages at the zoo and letting the inhabitants roam the community. Anybody who did so would likely be in a lot of trouble.

Come here and visit to study us? I can see that. Get "caught" once in awhile in a stray sighting? Unlikely but possible. Be able to hide in plain sight so as not to be detected? Sure, if you can fly here like that you may well have such technology too. But then you're so irresponsible and or stupid as to allow us to get our hands on your tech? I don't think so, and if it happened, I'd be more likely to believe that the Ceti Alpha Seal Team would make the stuff "disappear" before we had a chance to play with it.


"13 billion years"

That is what we know would eventually destroy the earth, but an earth destroying asteroid could come from the direction of the sun at anytime, giving us no more time than to say our goodbyes, and certainly not enough time to escape it if it were to happen soon. Could it be that "somebody" out there knows when that time will come, and be trying to help us? :shrug:

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 20:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
considering the Kepler team study, there are 50 billion planets in the Milky Way, of which 500 million are in the habitable zone, what are the odds of other intelligent life more advanced than ours existing in this galaxy alone, when the total number of galaxies in the universe is estimated at 200 billion to two trillion. I think it defies logic to think that we are the only intelligent civilization , or the most advanced in the universe.

The odds of intelligent extraterrestrial life are so large as to be all but a given. The question isn't so much whether there are more advanced species out there, but whether they have the slightest interest in us, are not hostile to us, and are stupid enough to leave some of their most advanced technology lying around where we can pick it up and start playing with it. I think those odds are vanishingly small.



This is the Fermi Paradox, yet we we are talking about it with little proof. Whether you believe in evolution or creation, the chances of producing humans from elements (damn you Carbon, you unrepentant toxin) is even more remote than the number of stars in the universe.

Anyone with a basic understanding of biology would know that any life that entered our planet that did not come from a planet similar to ours would be dead in seconds to minutes. Even those that could survive our highly toxic environment would be dead in days to weeks.

My last point is that at one point Einstein was considered nuts. His ideas, because they defy the the forced and inherent simplicity of Newtonian physics, were considered to be crazy. Turns out relativity explains more about the world than Newtonian physics. Relativity will eventually be turned on its head also. A unifying theme is still elusive.

Even our simple aircraft engines have a lot of relativity going on in them.

George Braly continues to defy laws that most pilots and all engine manufacturers thought were hard lines.
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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 21:14 
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Username Protected wrote:
"13 billion years"

That is what we know would eventually destroy the earth, but an earth destroying asteroid could come from the direction of the sun at anytime, giving us no more time than to say our goodbyes, and certainly not enough time to escape it if it were to happen soon. Could it be that "somebody" out there knows when that time will come, and be trying to help us? :shrug:

Why?

From the perspective of a far more advanced civilization, what do we possess as a species that is so valuable that intervention is needed to keep it alive? We find a lot of value in some of our endeavors, but if you take even a slightly focused look, we as a civilization are really primitive. We are superstitious, xenophobic, violent, and intolerant, and that’s just toward others of our species. Why would I as an advanced alien society want to protect that, let alone arm it with my technology?

Asteroid? Yeah, no more dinosaurs. That made way for far more advanced humans. The next one? No more humans. What superior species is waiting for their chance? Maybe the under-appreciated cockroach. :shrug:

Nature won’t stop if we are no longer here. The only ones who care about that outcome are us.

Maybe we’re like a favorite pet, but if they would miss us that much why wouldn’t they just collect a few thousand of us and put us in a zoo?

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 Post subject: Re: SR-72
PostPosted: 18 Mar 2021, 21:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
"13 billion years"

That is what we know would eventually destroy the earth, but an earth destroying asteroid could come from the direction of the sun at anytime, giving us no more time than to say our goodbyes, and certainly not enough time to escape it if it were to happen soon. Could it be that "somebody" out there knows when that time will come, and be trying to help us? :shrug:

Why?

From the perspective of a far more advanced civilization, what do we possess as a species that is so valuable that intervention is needed to keep it alive? We find a lot of value in some of our endeavors, but if you take even a slightly focused look, we as a civilization are really primitive. We are superstitious, xenophobic, violent, and intolerant, and that’s just toward others of our species. Why would I as an advanced alien society want to protect that, let alone arm it with my technology?

Asteroid? Yeah, no more dinosaurs. That made way for far more advanced humans. The next one? No more humans. What superior species is waiting for their chance? Maybe the under-appreciated cockroach. :shrug:

Nature won’t stop if we are no longer here. The only ones who care about that outcome are us.

Maybe we’re like a favorite pet, but if they would miss us that much why wouldn’t they just collect a few thousand of us and put us in a zoo?


Regardless of any possibilities of extraterrestrial life or visiting us, I find your characterization of the human spirit decidedly negative, painting all of mankind or even most of mankind with the same negative broad brush. I just don't see us that way as defining us, but we are only talking about opinions.

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