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28 Mar 2024, 13:16 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 09:40 
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Nothing to do with the original poster from my perspective. Just plain common sense.

:thumbup:

I am sick to death of this lawsuit oriented nanny society. I'm more than willing to let a fool kill himself should he have that desire.

Jg[/quote]

Gene pool cleansing :tape:

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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 13:48 
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Respectfully, some of you are missing the point. If someone wants to be a dumb ass, auger in because of their dumb-assery, and win a Darwin Award... that's fine. I have zero problems with it.

When there's a chance that what you did (sold - as a DEALER) can come back and bite you in the ass badly, financially crushing you and your company... then it should take some thought on your part. That crash could crush the pilot's family and also yours.. Pretending otherwise is naïve.. Bravado is one thing. That's fine. "I'll sell anything to anyone". That's fine. 'Absolutely your call. Acknowledge there are risks. Or not.

I effing hate today's litigious society. HATE IT. I work in the industry that pays for much of it (insurance). For those of you that think the insurance industry likes this litigious society, then I will offer that you have the business acumen of a turnip. However it is the society we live in. And a dealer selling this aircraft to a not-qualified pilot puts his company and his personal livelihood (and your insurance premiums that many of you like to b!tch about) at risk... Real simple... You many not like it. I definitely don't like it... but it is the way it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 16:10 
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Does a car dealer sell an 18 year old a Lamborghini if the kid has the funds to wire?
The odds are probably similar that something bad is going to happen.


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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2021, 14:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
Question to any dealers out there. Would you sell a brand new Pressurized Turbo-Prop to a buyer with only 50 hours total and no IFR ticket? Would you sell an aircraft of this type knowing that it could not be insured ? Is it okay to sell one to someone who would then fly it VFR at 17,500 or below? I am curious to see if there are those in the business of selling aircraft of this type to a customer with little or no experience in the flight levels or in the system. Pilatus, TBM, Cessna and Piper dealers feel free to respond.


I knew a guy back in the 70's that had a lot of money and very limited pilot skills.
He bought a pressurized suckme/blowme, Polish buzzbomb, Cessna Skymaster.
He lost his ticket after calling center for flight following at 18,500. :thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2021, 08:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
Does a car dealer sell an 18 year old a Lamborghini if the kid has the funds to wire?
The odds are probably similar that something bad is going to happen.


David,

I just clicked back on this thread and your post came up. You make a better point, I think, than you even intended. "Motorcycles". Statistics clearly show the incredible risk of injury and death. Who would you think is more at risk, a low time pilot in a SETP or a 21 year old on a 200 mph road bike? Around here, young people killed or permanently injured on four wheelers is a common occurrence. The accident rate on 3 wheelers was so bad that the manufacturers had to discontinue them due to lawsuits.

I have thought the mind set of this thread was absurd from the very beginning. My opinion has not changed.

Jg

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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 04 Aug 2021, 19:18 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
Username Protected wrote:
Respectfully, some of you are missing the point. If someone wants to be a dumb ass, auger in because of their dumb-assery, and win a Darwin Award... that's fine. I have zero problems with it.

When there's a chance that what you did (sold - as a DEALER) can come back and bite you in the ass badly, financially crushing you and your company... then it should take some thought on your part. That crash could crush the pilot's family and also yours.. Pretending otherwise is naïve.. Bravado is one thing. That's fine. "I'll sell anything to anyone". That's fine. 'Absolutely your call. Acknowledge there are risks. Or not.

I effing hate today's litigious society. HATE IT. I work in the industry that pays for much of it (insurance). For those of you that think the insurance industry likes this litigious society, then I will offer that you have the business acumen of a turnip. However it is the society we live in. And a dealer selling this aircraft to a not-qualified pilot puts his company and his personal livelihood (and your insurance premiums that many of you like to b!tch about) at risk... Real simple... You many not like it. I definitely don't like it... but it is the way it is.


The reality is that a dealer who sells an airplane to someone is likely to get sued if there's a crash. I may have even mentioned this here, but I am too busy to look back through the thread to check... even if you do nothing wrong you can get entangled in the lawsuit. I have two friends who are stocking dealers who have endured this, one owned the B200 that hit the FSI building. They did zero wrong but still had to endure the hassle and cost of lawsuits.

If I were a dealer / broker I certainly wouldn't be cavalier about selling an aircraft to someone who wasn't qualified. Even doing what we do, and being a consultant for the acquisition of an aircraft I am very sensitive to what type of experience our clients who are also pilots have and our potential liability. Even if it's a annoyance lawsuit... it's $50k to hire an aviation attorney.

It does come up, fortunately the insurance company is usually the bad guy, but I have had to end an acquisition because the guy wasn't qualified to fly the aircraft he hired us to buy. He purchased another type of aircraft that we do not acquire, I'm not sure how the entire process worked, how he was able to fly or get insured, because we were not involved. I was thankful to not be involved.

The simple solution is to simply hire a qualified pilot to fly whatever it is you want to buy... this has come up here before and for many pilot / owners it seems to be a concept as foreign as hiring a chauffeur to drive the family station wagon.

It's really that simple, hire a pilot... enjoy the right seat. Done. End goal is to fly yourself? Hire an instructor pilot. Done.

By the way, before I get flamed... yes we do have three clients who are pilots, currently flying other aircraft, but also flying right seat in the King Airs they own, so this isn't a foreign concept.

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 Post subject: Re: Sell New Pressurized TP to Pilot w/o Instrument Rating?
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2021, 01:54 
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Joined: 06/17/14
Posts: 4891
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Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
Username Protected wrote:
Does a car dealer sell an 18 year old a Lamborghini if the kid has the funds to wire?
The odds are probably similar that something bad is going to happen.

They actually do!!! Granted, I am not sure if Tanner or Hayden wired it or had a bank wire the funding and whether it is his or in the name of an LLC that either of them owns. DDE was different because I believe he gifted the Lambo to his baby girl @ 18.

The chances the random kid (not Tanner or Hayden) wipes out and destroys the car are possibly higher than someone older *but* the chances that he will kill 6 other people on board, and smack into a $MM house at 120KTS with 400GALs of JET-A in the wings, are limited. Note - Tanner and Hayden both bought 2 seaters, not a Urus with a towing package.

Yes, 18 is still a kid. They can't buy a beer or pack of smokes legally in many states until they are 21. They can vote and watch NC-17 movies and maybe have a family rifle or shotgun transferred to them. They can also buy a Lambo or even a Pilatapus but the aircraft dealer is going to be "SUS" as the 18 year-olds call it.

I posted earlier about our old company owner buying several aircraft including jets when he had his student ticket. He has his C-IV and Premier type but only a PP-AS/MEL with Instrument ticket. I recall that his insurance was a bear even if he was PIC in the C-182 or Seneca and other pilots were just along for a joy ride.

There are business owners purchasing SETPs without so much as an hour of instruction or with a Private ticket *but* there are women and men with the needed experience and checkout flying that aircraft. A few months ago I watched this happen with a Cirrus Vision Jet at KJYO. The owner had just finished his private ticket and there was a CFI for the jet. Generally there is financing and all the right insurance to make the bank, seller all 4 sets of attorneys (buyer, seller/broker, bank, title company) happy. Insurance is in place for the aircraft and they likely have an insurance rider on their life insurance covering GA aircraft and maybe even specifics related to that aircraft. The more money you make (risk) the more scrutiny exists.

They will also check out the funding sources to ensure that money is legit! Don't believe me - ask any jet or TP broker/buyer's agent about what the Feds (FAA, IRS, FBI, USMS, and even USPS) can do if that money even smells like powdered sugar.


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