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04 Aug 2021, 20:51 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 17:22 
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Anyone have any incite on adding Permanent Ballast on a 12,500lb aircraft? Legally

Aircraft is a Citation 550. Just had Columbia Avionics dual G700's with all the goodies installed. now aircraft needs 150 lbs in the nose to get CG to come out if flying with crew only. looking to add permanent ballast so they never have to worry about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 19:12 
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Feed the crew a really fattening diet :)


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 20:59 
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Don’t know about ‘permanent’ but a couple sighting in sacks of lead in a duffel bag would work.

Lead sled is I believe the contraption that the lead sacks are made for. Use it to sight in rifles.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 21:29 
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I have a huge led brick in my Piaggio nose for the same reason. Did enough so that I still have to add some led shot bags when just me but I am in cg with others in the plane.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 21:37 
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Some Citations have a block of lead on the tail aft bulkhead, to correct for all the heavy stuff in the nose. If yours does, then removing it will help with the CG.

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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 15 Apr 2021, 23:35 
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I'd look in the back as suggested first, and then second go over the revised W&B and make sure all the calcs are correct second. Maybe consider weighing it as well before going for an installation like that in the nose. I don't know that aircraft, but unless you have specific coverage/provisions to put ballast in the nose, you'll likely need a DER in my opinion to make sure the structure can handle it and provide an approval that an IA can use for the mod. (I'm a structural analyst for my day job but not a DER but know some.)


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 00:20 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any incite on adding Permanent Ballast on a 12,500lb aircraft? Legally

Aircraft is a Citation 550. Just had Columbia Avionics dual G700's with all the goodies installed. now aircraft needs 150 lbs in the nose to get CG to come out if flying with crew only. looking to add permanent ballast so they never have to worry about it.

Sam,

I just had Columbia do my Citation V (well, it is still there). Got 382 lbs lighter (which implies they removed ~500 lbs of stuff!).

CG moved rear a lot, now I need 200 lbs to fly solo (or 50 lbs to fly two pilot). Even with ballast, the plane is lighter overall.

I'm working on ways to improve this. On the V, the oxygen tank is WAY in the back, I am seeing if I can move it to the nose which would cut about 70 lbs from the ballast I need. Here is where I would put it:
Attachment:
560-0149-oxygen-bottle-size.jpg

An Ultra oxygen tank will fit there nicely. I'm still working out who can do the work and what sort of approval is required.

I am surveying anything else I can take out of the tail. Not much I can find to remove at this stage.

I am also looking at fixed ballast, easiest is lead plates bolted to structure up front in the nose bay. Downside is that when you have a full load, you can't take them out.

If I can get it down to 100 lbs removable ballast, that will be close enough. When I have a full cabin load, I can then take it out and get those 100 lbs back.

Mike C.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 00:53 
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Just whittling out a slug of balsa to lead cast a ballast weight for a different bird this week.
Was originally thinking I’d use Tungsten remnants instead but sounds like a bear to machine.

Bummer you can’t get the battery up there.

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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 00:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just whittling out a slug of balsa to lead cast a ballast weight for a different bird this week.
Was originally thinking I’d use Tungsten remnants instead but sounds like a bear to machine.

Bummer you can’t get the battery up there.


Sorry for the drift. . . do you go from balsa positive to a baked sand negative to pour the lead?

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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 03:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just whittling out a slug of balsa to lead cast a ballast weight for a different bird this week.
Was originally thinking I’d use Tungsten remnants instead but sounds like a bear to machine.

Bummer you can’t get the battery up there.


Sorry for the drift. . . do you go from balsa positive to a baked sand negative to pour the lead?


I'd personally do a lost foam casting.. Carve foam to fit, add risers, put in sand mold, and pour.

But it's been 20+ years since I did any real casting work.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 08:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any incite on adding Permanent Ballast on a 12,500lb aircraft? Legally

Aircraft is a Citation 550. Just had Columbia Avionics dual G700's with all the goodies installed. now aircraft needs 150 lbs in the nose to get CG to come out if flying with crew only. looking to add permanent ballast so they never have to worry about it.


My Citation V that had the JetTech version of your panel needed an 80lb lead brick up in the nose. 150lbs is no bueno! I'm surprised they didn't do this for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 09:12 
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Company: AssuredPartners Aerospace Phx.
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Username Protected wrote:
Just whittling out a slug of balsa to lead cast a ballast weight for a different bird this week.
Was originally thinking I’d use Tungsten remnants instead but sounds like a bear to machine.

Bummer you can’t get the battery up there.


Sorry for the drift. . . do you go from balsa positive to a baked sand negative to pour the lead?

I was just gonna whittle a balsa negative and give er a go?
I want to mount into a specific cavity so this would get me the shape.
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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 09:21 
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You can buy Tungsten billets from the NASCAR guys (used, but no moving parts). I bought a 33 lb. chunk to move the CG in my RV8 for racing. It is easy to machine.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 10:18 
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Whats the maximum weigh limitations for adding ballast in those areas?

No way I'd be bolting on that much weight without evidence it can be there.


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 Post subject: Re: Adding Permanent Ballast
PostPosted: 16 Apr 2021, 10:28 
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Username Protected wrote:
Anyone have any incite on adding Permanent Ballast on a 12,500lb aircraft? Legally

Aircraft is a Citation 550. Just had Columbia Avionics dual G700's with all the goodies installed. now aircraft needs 150 lbs in the nose to get CG to come out if flying with crew only. looking to add permanent ballast so they never have to worry about it.


I too am surprised that is on you. The last STC I helped install clearly said,

* aircraft must be weighed post-mod and ballast added as necessary to move CG back to pre-mod spec. Each drawing had a serial number range and a list of ballast plate part numbers, depending on the serial number the max weight allowed at the location changed. All ballast had to b removed and weigh and new ballast added to ensure limitation were met.


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