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28 Mar 2024, 21:27 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2021, 15:57 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
What about a IIIC? Seems a bit bigger than a 441, but prices are lower. Why is that?

Also looks like I will be in a 441 soon. Curious if anyone has the 5 bladed MTs. If anyone knows of a Mentor pilot in the Denver area with 441 time let me know.


John, the IIIC Merlin is has a 62"wide x 57" tall x 209" (aft of cockpit divider) long cabin. The C441 is 55" wide x 51" tall x 168" (aft of cockpit divider) long cabin. The Merlin design is based on redundancy or a "dual, fail safe" concept. Dual tires all around. Dual, one piece, full length main spars. It is a very stout purpose built twin turboprop that did not come out of a piston design. As a result it is heavier than the C441 and has a lower service ceiling (F310). The Merlin has a cabin diff of 7 psi compared to 6.3 in the C441. C441 has the ability to go higher if you don't mind the cabin alt and there is efficiency to be gained there.

Several years ago I overhauled the Dowty props on the Merlin. I was about ready to go with the MT's but decided to stick with the known safe original prop instead of converting. I recall reading somewhere that MT props were tried on C441 but there were problems (as in nearly loosing the aircraft) and it was scrapped. Maybe you know about that as I no longer recall the details or where I read that.


MT is selling, or at least they are listed on their website, the props for the 441 which appear to be identical to the 5 blades on the merlin. I will ask WestStar.

Since the merlin is bigger (except in length) it's confusing why it is cheaper. I know the 441 is more efficient, but that doesn't seem to be the whole story. Are there service issues?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2021, 16:50 
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Joined: 06/09/09
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
In 2013, when I purchased the Merlin, I would have given the C441 a closer look was it not for the 2x+ price they were going for then. From the shops I’ve talked to the C441 has at least as many if not more “issue” items than the Merlin. Biggest problem you’ll encounter with a Merlin is a dishonest/incompetant shop. My guess is that will be the same with a 441 also.

The price drop in the 441 series has been much more dramatic than in the Merlin/MU2 aircraft. I could guess at why but don’t have hard data.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2021, 20:47 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
Saw a 441 at KBTV with the MT’s this week


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2021, 07:33 
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
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Username Protected wrote:
The price drop in the 441 series has been much more dramatic than in the Merlin/MU2 aircraft. I could guess at why but don’t have hard data.


There's been a price drop in the 441's? Almost every one is advertised for more than my customer paid in 2017. At that time, Controller had 13-18 for sale at any given time. Today there is eight listed.

I believe the aircraft lost during testing MT props was a Turbo Commander IIRC.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2021, 11:52 
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I think your right Jason, it likely was the TC.

I was shopping in 2012. I recall nicer 441’s going for 1.5M+ and nice IIIC Merlins were about half that.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2021, 12:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
The price drop in the 441 series has been much more dramatic than in the Merlin/MU2 aircraft. I could guess at why but don’t have hard data.


There's been a price drop in the 441's? Almost every one is advertised for more than my customer paid in 2017. At that time, Controller had 13-18 for sale at any given time. Today there is eight listed.

I believe the aircraft lost during testing MT props was a Turbo Commander IIRC.


Was that the TC that flew through a thunderstorm and broke up in OK on the way to NBAA?
Kevin

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 02 Sep 2021, 16:41 
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Company: Tack Mobile
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Username Protected wrote:
I think your right Jason, it likely was the TC.

I was shopping in 2012. I recall nicer 441’s going for 1.5M+ and nice IIIC Merlins were about half that.


That's the same as today, at least on the 441 side.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 03 Sep 2021, 07:25 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think your right Jason, it likely was the TC.

I was shopping in 2012. I recall nicer 441’s going for 1.5M+ and nice IIIC Merlins were about half that.


In 2017, I physically looked at 13 441's before we bought the last one. Prices were $595k up to the highest of $1.5M. At that time (possibly the same today), they were selling quicker than I could go look at them and get an offer on the table. We had a large deposit sitting in escrow with no N-number tied to it for about six months. We made offers on three or four. On the final one, we finally figured out that the large broker that was "representing" multiple airplanes that we looked at and made offers on was not actually representing them and was rewriting our offers. Shortly after our purchase, they disappeared off the face of the earth.

Most were in the $1M range. The lower priced had some kind of issues (engine times, P&I, etc.). The top one was an absolute creampuff with an OCD owner/pilot, but more than my buyer wanted to spend. The logbooks were a piece of art! In the end, we ended up with a great airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 02:45 
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Joined: 08/05/16
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Company: Tack Mobile
Location: KBJC
Aircraft: C441
Username Protected wrote:
I think your right Jason, it likely was the TC.

I was shopping in 2012. I recall nicer 441’s going for 1.5M+ and nice IIIC Merlins were about half that.


In 2017, I physically looked at 13 441's before we bought the last one. Prices were $595k up to the highest of $1.5M. At that time (possibly the same today), they were selling quicker than I could go look at them and get an offer on the table. We had a large deposit sitting in escrow with no N-number tied to it for about six months. We made offers on three or four. On the final one, we finally figured out that the large broker that was "representing" multiple airplanes that we looked at and made offers on was not actually representing them and was rewriting our offers. Shortly after our purchase, they disappeared off the face of the earth.

Most were in the $1M range. The lower priced had some kind of issues (engine times, P&I, etc.). The top one was an absolute creampuff with an OCD owner/pilot, but more than my buyer wanted to spend. The logbooks were a piece of art! In the end, we ended up with a great airplane.


Did you do P&I and if so any recommendations? Just toured west star and didn’t realize most of the work they do makes a 441 look like a trainer. They said they usually have 3-4 in the hangar on any given day which was the case today (4 in the hangar including a 425, 2 on the ramp).

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 04:48 
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Joined: 12/17/13
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Username Protected wrote:

Was that the TC that flew through a thunderstorm and broke up in OK on the way to NBAA?
Kevin


Yes it was.

Just to throw in another contender here, the Turbo Commander 1000 and 900 models will at FL350 burn around 380pph and do 300kts. Not quite as efficient as the 441, but almost. And the cabin is bigger.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 06:31 
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Username Protected wrote:

Was that the TC that flew through a thunderstorm and broke up in OK on the way to NBAA?
Kevin


Yes it was.

Just to throw in another contender here, the Turbo Commander 1000 and 900 models will at FL350 burn around 380pph and do 300kts. Not quite as efficient as the 441, but almost. And the cabin is bigger.


How does recurring maintenance costs compare on TC, San Antonio Sewer Pipe, and 441?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Sep 2021, 06:50 
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Username Protected wrote:

How does recurring maintenance costs compare on TC, San Antonio Sewer Pipe, and 441?


I wouldn't really know, but I assume they'd be pretty similar.

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Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


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