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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 21:18 
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Bryan,

I was in your shoes 6 years ago and went from a Cessna 340 to a PC-12. JP’s post is a great summary with pistons vs turbines. I’ll add a few other things to consider.

My rough number calculations don’t work with owning two airplanes. Lots of fixed costs to overcome with owning two. Consider investing in one reliable turbine that meets all of your missions and fly the wings off it. Provides you with an overall more capable airplane for all missions with the same or lower operating costs.

Assuming your business needs you for operations/growth and not you being a full time pilot, consider contract pilot availability in your area for a particular aircraft type. I’d guess that King Air and PC-12 pilots will be easier to find than MU2 or 441 pilots. Sure we all like to fly here, but when your employees begin to depend on the plane, you will become a full time pilot and part time business owner if you don’t have contract pilots available or the budget to hire a full time pilot. I hired a full time pilot last year as flying and aircraft management were taking up too much of my time. That’s hard for me to say because I love to fly but that was reality. It’s been a huge time saver, I didn’t realize how much time I was spending on pilot duties which were taking time away from business and family. It’s fun until it becomes a two full time jobs.

Good luck, it’s great to have a business that needs and can support an airplane.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 10:07 
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Lots of fixed costs to overcome with owning two. Consider investing in one reliable turbine that meets all of your missions and fly the wings off it.


consider contract pilot availability .... It’s fun until it becomes [another] full time job.




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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 10:24 
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why not a legacy TBM700 C2, or a legacy PC-12?

higher capex, but way more capable. also, if you're putting people from your business in the airplane, hard to argue with the reliability and safety that the turbine brings.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 10:30 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
I owned a 421C and lost an engine on takeoff. luckily I'm here to talk about it. That was it for me, and there are many pilots who have lost an engine flying that plane. It's a fantastic machine when everything is working. Dispatch reliability was poor as well. We had starter adaptors fail, props would feather after landing etc. etc., always on a trip. It strictly followed Murphy's law.
Moved up to a C441 in 2015 and I couldn't be happier with it. Dispatch reliability is almost 100% and the "40 year old airplane issues" have been resolved by leaning into some specialty shops and gurus that still care for and make a living servicing the Conquest.
Be prepared for a biennial Phase D inspection to run anywhere from $40-175K. The high end number will occur infrequently but it can happen. Happy to talk if you need more info.
Where's Max Nerheim? He went through the same deal as me, 421C to 441 and lost an engine in flight on the 421.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 10:38 
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WoW 40-175k every two year is a tough pill to swallow and is clearly jet territory... how do you justify keeping a machine with such high maintenance cost ?


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 10:56 
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Be prepared for a biennial Phase D inspection to run anywhere from $40-175K.

Those are shocking numbers.

You are making me feel really good about my MU2 ownership. I think my largest inspection invoice was in the low $20K range. I've owned it for 13 years and 1600+ hours now, so not a small sample size.

I'm also feeling I made the right decision to go with a Citation rather than a 441 if those are the kind of maintenance numbers involved.

You must be going to an expensive shop and paying premium prices for parts. Where is the money going?

Back to the original job, hauling 8 people 500 miles. The most economical and reliable option is a long body MU2. Great passenger experience, even has an entrance "foyer". I don't think piston is truly suitable for this mission.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 11:46 
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We’ve had one 175K job, involved replacing outflow and safety valve, both windshields, major gear inspection, all mew tires, door parts, new fuel nozzles,80 hours of sheet metal work for nose gear drag brace and NLG interior panels, ACM overhaul, all new hoses etc etc. etc. it was major open heart surgery!
The 30-40K will be typical for a biennial. The inspection is usually combined with a phase 2&3, so it’s around 13-15K for just the inspection, then you add on the squawks or voluntary upgrades and repairs.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 14:02 
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Username Protected wrote:

Back to the original job, hauling 8 people 500 miles. The most economical and reliable option is a long body MU2. Great passenger experience, even has an entrance "foyer". I don't think piston is truly suitable for this mission.

Mike C.


This...

And, there is a big difference hauling employees around in a piston v. turbine. Non-pilots view all of these options as “small planes”. You want to make it at least neutral on their opinion scale, not a negative.

For example, I flew docs and their staff for a few years in a Navajo. Hot in the summer, cold in the winter, loud, etc... Docs thought it was great, staff was slightly less than neutral. They now drive...unknown what the satisfaction rating on that is, but it has been nearly 3 years since they sold the ‘Jo and haven’t flown.

Another point is a different set of docs looking for a replacement to their light twin. Options could be A36, SR22, Mirage, Seneca, 58 Baron. Or a C90A. Which do you think the employees will see more favorably?

Last point. A local business has a Seneca. Owner thinks it is great, likes to ride in the back with pro Pilot up front. One trip is 3 hours in the Seneca or 4-5 hours on the airline (hub stop). Employees always choose airline...Seneca hardly gets flown.

As pilots, we tend to see this as a “what gets the job done”, versus the employees see this as a “what size uncomfortable tin can are they making me fly in to be able to work here...”


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 16:51 
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As pilots, we tend to see this as a “what gets the job done”, versus the employees see this as a “what size uncomfortable tin can are they making me fly in to be able to work here...”


100% true. Funny story, my wife works for a very large software company and has been invited to fly the global express from SF to NY a couple of times. Of course I was super excited for her and would have jumped at the opportunity. I made her take pics of the cockpit in flight, etc. But at the end of the day, she didn't like it. Flying on the jet meant being captive with the senior leadership of the company for 5 hours and being peppered with questions after a few days of hard work on a business trip. All she really wanted to do is have a glass of wine and crash out. She preferred flying commercial...

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 18:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Flying on the jet meant being captive with the senior leadership of the company... She preferred flying commercial...

Those must be really awful senior execs.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 20:56 
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Yeah but they grew the company from 0 to $17b in 20 years. They were/are doing something right.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 21:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don't think piston is truly suitable for this mission.

Mike C.


1) I agree
2) You could make a case for a Cessna 404 (441 body, 421 engines, unpressurized). It's got the room for pilot plus 7 adults. They're rare, expensive (good for cargo) and often high time. See #1


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2021, 00:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Be prepared for a biennial Phase D inspection to run anywhere from $40-175K. The high end number will occur infrequently but it can happen. Happy to talk if you need more info.
Where's Max Nerheim? He went through the same deal as me, 421C to 441 and lost an engine in flight on the 421.


Holy crap, what did you do to deserve that?

I'm not directly involved in the airplane now, but the only time we seen bills like that were when we did the 2, 3, D inspections, a bunch of others, an avionics package, and both engines had lighting strike inspections.

Last year, the owners told me they paid $175k for the airplane. I believe that included the full time pilots salary, hangar rent, maintenance (2, 3 that year), fuel, etc. That was for 150 hours.

The last year we had the 421C, they told me the cost was $100k for 130 hours. That included everything including fuel and part time pilot services.

When we bought the airplane in 2017, we did about 35 phases as West Star had screwed up records and it showed up with 15 inspections years past due and the total cost was under $85k. That includes some additional prebuy items and both props overhauled.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2021, 23:46 
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Hi,

..and here is Max...
I also had an engine out in a 421... Then my wife started nagging about a TP, but the “popular” TP planes did not make sense compared to a 421, too much fuel, maintenance, not fast enough...

Then I looked at the 441, was very impressed, and have owned one for 6 years. Have flown it with 10 people from Scottsdale to Cancun non-stop, and each year I usually fly Juneau to Scottsdale non-stop from our yearly fishing trip.
Have also done Scottsdale to San Fransisco R/T without refueling.. Flew it to Europe - an easy trip! Also Florida to Scottsdale non-stop several times.

Since the 441 climbs so fast, the trip fuel will be comparable or less than a 421, at a lower cost per gallon. PM me and I can send my 441 table from Fltplan.com. It is very accurate. I recommend you Flightplan the planes you are looking at...

Cruise speeds are just over 300 knots in mid 20s, around 300 knots up to fl300, and around 285 knots at Fl 350. Fuel burn at FL350 is 340 to 360 lbs/hr. Single engine is about 220 knots true, and 715 ft/min at gross.

As soon as I got the plane I installed dual GtN750, dual G600, new radar, A/P, RVSP, soundproofing, LED lights, strakes, hubcaps.

Added new paint and interior a couple of years ago. Also recommend removing the rear divider and installing a privacy curtain (that is open most of the time), making the cabin feel much larger.

Except for last year I have flown it 150 to 300 hours per year, much more than I expected when buying it. Lately, I have been flying my Extra NG more frequently, just for fun :-)

Weight and balance is good for 8 adults (with no weight in nose). Useful load is 4100+ lbs. (mine has the weight increase). 215 cm long cross country skis fit in the front baggage (important for us Scandinavian guys!)

I have had 2 unscheduled maintenance issues; a generator, and an O-ring on the oxygen bottle. Both did not cancel the trip.

A phase 2 and 3 every 2 years runs about 15 to 25k
The phase 2,3, and D the in-between years have run me $40-65k

Since plane is 40 years old the Arizona registration dropped to something like $30 per year!!!! (Enough to pay for a hangar, almost)

My favorite maintenance shop is TechAir in Fresno, they really know the ins and outs. Favorite training facility is former Proflight in Carlsbad, now Textron. I recommend go there and take the initial course before buying the airplane.

It is easier to fly and manage than a 421; only 2 fuel tanks, and the backup fuel pumps come on automatically if one pump fails. The engines are computer controlled, preventing overtorq and overtemp, and provides single button start.

I have looked at Jets as well, but so far they seem too expensive for 70 to 100 knots faster cruise speeds. The fuel cost for a 441 will be in-between a Cirrus Jet and an Eclipse. I.e. about 2500 lbs R/T from KAPA to KSFO. The engine overhaul cost is about $100/hr for BOTH engines, I.e. about the same hourly cost as a single P&W....

I am still dreaming of going 400+ knots but haven’t found a plane yet...


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 00:19 
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Hi,

I am still dreaming of going 400+ knots but haven’t found a plane yet...


Piper Cheyenne 400 LS


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