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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 19 Mar 2021, 23:58 
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The quote was for the earlier post - you had just done the work of stripping the other tags out. :D


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 21 Mar 2021, 21:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Fuel flow no where near as low as a PC12

Weight, no where near as high as a PC12

Performance no where as slow as a PC12. This is a big deal in headwinds.

Range no where as short as PC12.

Propulsion redundancy no where as poor as PC12.

Fuel used is about same per mile when accounting for the speed.

If 441 is RVSM, can go to FL350 and fly at 370 pph going more than 300 knots. No PC12 can touch that efficiency despite being single engine.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 12:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Fuel flow no where near as low as a PC12

Weight, no where near as high as a PC12

Performance no where as slow as a PC12. This is a big deal in headwinds.

Range no where as short as PC12.

Propulsion redundancy no where as poor as PC12.

Fuel used is about same per mile when accounting for the speed.

If 441 is RVSM, can go to FL350 and fly at 370 pph going more than 300 knots. No PC12 can touch that efficiency despite being single engine.

Mike C.


I agree 100%. It was slightly tongue in cheek. I also noted this in a post

"Agreed 100%. One thing to note is that the PC12 is limited to FL300, you can go to 350. That's huge. I shoulda looked at them way more closely.
Their only downfall is that they are not making them no more. I was doing some yardwork at KFXE today. Every third plane was a PC12. If they resurrected the 441 I think it would do awesome!!!!!"

I think that the 441 is the best buy in GA. After looking at CJ3's and P300's, I'm still sticking with my PC12. Other than speed, I get no appreciable benefit for the extra 1k per hour that they would run me.

If they started rebuilding the 441, I think they would have a fairly big order book.
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 13:15 
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Username Protected wrote:

If they started rebuilding the 441, I think they would have a fairly big order book.


Agreed. The PC12 proves the point that a (now) $5m price point for modest fuel burn and big cabin exists.

A new 441 would probably kill the King Air 250/260 in a heartbeat and squeeze the 350.

82 PC12s, 20 KA 250s, and 34 350s made in 2020. That's a good sized pie. I'd say you can convert most of the 250 orders and at least a few dozen PC12 orders to 441. Maybe more owner flown stuff with a Garmin panel in it.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 13:22 
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Username Protected wrote:

If they started rebuilding the 441, I think they would have a fairly big order book.


Agreed. The PC12 proves the point that a (now) $5m price point for modest fuel burn and big cabin exists.

A new 441 would probably kill the King Air 250/260 in a heartbeat and squeeze the 350.

82 PC12s, 20 KA 250s, and 34 350s made in 2020. That's a good sized pie. I'd say you can convert most of the 250 orders and at least a few dozen PC12 orders to 441. Maybe more owner flown stuff with a Garmin panel in it.


Re-build the 441, keep the fuselage and wings the same to avoid cert costs. Re-issue with G3000, auto throttles, auto land, and you definitely kill everything except the biggest KAs. Garmin gets you a bunch of Pilatus owner ops who would rather have easy avionics with two engines than tough avionics with one engine. Also gets you the TBM guys who didn't do a larger plane like the pilatus simply because of the avionics.

Unfortunately Cessna and Beech are owned by the same innovation-hating entity. Will never happen.

-J
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 16:31 
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I think the Avanti is the best buy in GA right now.

A lot bigger inside than a 441, way more comfort and size inside and a real lav, with much better pressure differential, and a lot quieter too. It’s also 45-60 knots faster and 15-40 years newer. Used examples exist at the same price points. The only thing the 441 does better is range.

As for efficiency:
P180 is around 0.74 Nm/lb (5.18 Nm/gal)
441 is around 0.59 Nm/lb (4.13 Nm/gal)

Obviously those numbers will move around with temps, weights and altitudes...but those are two recent actual examples provided by Tony and Martti.

If I’m throwing a million dollars at an airplane it’s going to be a 2001 Avanti II instead of a 1984 441. (Not that I have anything against old, slow, inefficient turboprops :D )

Edit: corrected using a more realistic Jet-A SG of 7.0 considering likely fuel temp.

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Last edited on 23 Mar 2021, 07:16, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 16:42 
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Username Protected wrote:
Re-build the 441, keep the fuselage and wings the same to avoid cert costs. Re-issue with G3000, auto throttles, auto land, and you definitely kill everything except the biggest KAs. Garmin gets you a bunch of Pilatus owner ops who would rather have easy avionics with two engines than tough avionics with one engine. Also gets you the TBM guys who didn't do a larger plane like the pilatus simply because of the avionics.

-J


The plane could start with just G3000 and 21st century interior and pay its way through all the other upgrades. A few to add to your list: increased cabin pressure and cabin sound reduction

The iterative process gives people a reason to upgrade, keeps costs low initially, and justifies incremental price increases


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 17:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think the Avanti is the best buy in GA right now.

A lot bigger inside than a 441, way more comfort and size inside and a real lav, with much better pressure differential. It’s also 45-60 knots faster and 15-40 years newer. Used examples exist at the same price points. The only thing the 441 does better is range.

As for efficiency:
P180 is around 0.74 Nm/lb (4.96 Nm/gal)
441 is around 0.59 Nm/lb (3.83 Nm/gal)

Obviously those numbers will move around with temps, weights and altitudes...but those are two recent actual examples provided by Tony and Martti.

If I’m throwing a million dollars at an airplane it’s going to be a 2001 Avanti II instead of a 1984 441. (Not that I have anything against old, slow, inefficient turboprops :D )


The P180 is the bees knees for all the reasons you mentioned, but the 441 numbers above seem off. I think it's the king when it comes to ME specific range

372 pph at 300 knots tas at FL350 is 5.4 nm/gal. Yes, cabin altitude is high. Even at FL 280, 500 pph at 315 tas is 4.2 nm/gal.

Tony's P180 numbers at FL330 near ISA was 375 tas, 104 gph, or 3.6 nm/gal. FL 370 was 355 tas, 82 gph, or 4.3 nm/gal.

Still great numbers for the P180 given the extra speed, space inside, and lower cabin altitude.

Don't forget the 441s better runway performance. That's important for some.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 17:04 
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Fuelfow was 540 PPH, props 100%
Weight was around 7800 lbs. I had 1200# fuel left
When I took the pic.
According to book ( dash 10 TPE 331 supplement) could have hit 320+KTAS at 250. It was ISA, so another -10 would have made the conditions perfect. Long story short, the 441 can really cook!


And the picture (pg 4) showed TAS 318 Knots

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 17:18 
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Don't forget the 441s better runway performance. That's important for some.


That is a big difference. The P180 is a super efficient jet, with jet-like runway requirements. It has better hot-high performance than most jets, but it still needs more runway than a Conquest.

I don't think you can get an Avanti out of Steamboat (KSBS) with much fuel in the summer. Maybe someone with those performance numbers can correct me.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 23:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Re-build the 441, keep the fuselage and wings the same to avoid cert costs. Re-issue with G3000, auto throttles, auto land, and you definitely kill everything except the biggest KAs. Garmin gets you a bunch of Pilatus owner ops who would rather have easy avionics with two engines than tough avionics with one engine. Also gets you the TBM guys who didn't do a larger plane like the pilatus simply because of the avionics.

-J


The plane could start with just G3000 and 21st century interior and pay its way through all the other upgrades. A few to add to your list: increased cabin pressure and cabin sound reduction

The iterative process gives people a reason to upgrade, keeps costs low initially, and justifies incremental price increases


Cessna was working on several sound reduction items when production ceased (slow turn props, shell interior). Increased cabin pressure IMHO would be a lot more difficult due to fuselage structure impacts.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 23:15 
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How do cabin noise levels compare between the 441/425/421?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 22 Mar 2021, 23:30 
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Username Protected wrote:
How do cabin noise levels compare between the 441/425/421?


441 is loud in inside and extremely noisy outside. Back in 1990 I almost bought one, but the company executives could not live with the noise inside or outside.

The 425 is also a lot louder than the 421C.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 10:28 
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How do cabin noise levels compare between the 441/425/421?


I think the 441 is as loud as my 414, and as the Aerostar that I had. It's definitely louder than the 421. It's not unbearable, but it's not a 421...

I still don't have passengers wear headsets in it unless they want to talk to me.

I have no experience with the 425.

Outside is a different story until takeoff, then I think it's quieter in the air than most piston airplanes.... I pull the power cart from it from time to time, and also did for Metro's for many years and outside requires hearing protection if you are near it. It does not have the howl of a MU-2..


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 14:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
A new 441 would probably kill the King Air 250/260 in a heartbeat and squeeze the 350.

I doubt it.

The King Air was never about performance, that's a owner flown thing to look at. The corporate world wants reputation and comfort, perceived or not. The King Air reputation will keep them selling even if they have inferior performance, which they have always had.

A restart 441 would be awesome, however. It would be a $6M airplane.

That said, the fact they aren't making them anymore is NOT an issue. You can maintain them and fly them just fine without that. Indeed, the newer planes that ARE in production have been saddled with higher parts costs and more onerous inspections. I realize the 441 has the SIDs, but all the new airplanes have that from the start, effectively.

A well kept older turbine is often cheaper to maintain than a new one though most don't believe that. Just ask anyone with a CJ paying ProParts, ProTech, Williams TAP Blue, avionics program, etc. If new is so much cheaper to maintain, why are they spending $1K/hour just for all these programs?

Mike C.

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