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20 Sep 2021, 02:08 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 09:39 
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 12140
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Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1961 Cessna 172
Username Protected wrote:
yeah, but it's 40kts faster! really torn here.




Preflight’s same speed, taxis the same speed, holds the same speed. “November little plane, turn 30 degrees off course and maintain 140 kts” the same speed.

Door to door trip times aren’t meaningfully different for a 10-15% delta in max cruise


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 13:33 
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Joined: 01/04/12
Posts: 272
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Aircraft: C441, Extra NG
My conquest has a 4120 lb useful load, how much is the typical useful load for a PC-12?

Fuel burn at same speed as a PC-12 will be lower than the PC-12, I think. Mine burns 340 to 360 lb/hr at FL350 doing about 285 to 290 knots.

Overhaul cost for two Garrett’s will be lower per hour than for one large Pratt...

A person I took for a flight in my 441 flies a C90 with Blackhawk engines. His comment was “the 441 is more of a jet than a TP - it climbs awesome, cruise at 300 knots, etc. “. I.e. it should be compared to jets, not TP airplanes!

And I agree that they are old airplanes, too bad nobody makes a comparable or better plane today!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 15:56 
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 191
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Love the discussion! I am looking to move up to something faster and pressurized with the ability to carry 8 people in the next year. I had settled on a 421C, but after all the reading here have justified a TP. I had narrowed it down to an MU-2 or 441. Leaning towards the MU-2 due to concerns about ongoing support, parts, etc. It helps that the factory-owned Mits service center is on-field. My budget is $1M. I had dismissed the PC-12 as they are too expensive, but I am open to partners. Will need to do some more research into the PC-12 now.

Keep the discussion coming!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 17:11 
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Joined: 05/01/14
Posts: 4609
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Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
Username Protected wrote:
Love the discussion! I am looking to move up to something faster and pressurized with the ability to carry 8 people in the next year. I had settled on a 421C, but after all the reading here have justified a TP. I had narrowed it down to an MU-2 or 441. Leaning towards the MU-2 due to concerns about ongoing support, parts, etc. It helps that the factory-owned Mits service center is on-field. My budget is $1M. I had dismissed the PC-12 as they are too expensive, but I am open to partners. Will need to do some more research into the PC-12 now.

Keep the discussion coming!


If your looking for enabling, I would suggest reading this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=110145

Good luck! :D


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 17:28 
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Joined: 11/06/20
Posts: 191
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Location: Tulsa, OK - KRVS
Aircraft: C501SP
Username Protected wrote:
If your looking for enabling, I would suggest reading this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=110145

Good luck! :D


:ahhh: Looks like IJSC is a Piaggio Service Center too.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 18:31 
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Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 4699
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Location: Decatur , TX (XA99)
Aircraft: A36,CessnaCub,RV9
Username Protected wrote:
Sounds like a Citation II mission to me. Acquisition cost of sub $500k, high dispatch reliability, ability to top weather, and acceptable speed of 350ktas ( a 500 mile trip is sub 2 hours, so even a 400 knot plane doesn't move the needle much).

Is the dispatch reliability really that high? Seems like there is more to go wrong with a pressurized twin jet.

On the Citation V that we fly, there has only been one time in 3 years where we have cancelled a flight, and that was due to a starter generator that would not come on line after startup. We have never had an AOG issue while on a trip.
The Citation II has never had a single cancelled flight or AOG event in that same time frame. The only maintenance event we have written up on it was a brake assembly issue after a flight.
Those are pretty good records for airframes that are over 30 years old.
_________________
C340 recurrent 12/20
C500 recurrent 6/21
C441 initial 7/21


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 19:55 
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Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 11026
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Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Username Protected wrote:
My conquest has a 4120 lb useful load, how much is the typical useful load for a PC-12?

Fuel burn at same speed as a PC-12 will be lower than the PC-12, I think. Mine burns 340 to 360 lb/hr at FL350 doing about 285 to 290 knots.

Overhaul cost for two Garrett’s will be lower per hour than for one large Pratt...

A person I took for a flight in my 441 flies a C90 with Blackhawk engines. His comment was “the 441 is more of a jet than a TP - it climbs awesome, cruise at 300 knots, etc. “. I.e. it should be compared to jets, not TP airplanes!

And I agree that they are old airplanes, too bad nobody makes a comparable or better plane today!


Agreed 100%. One thing to note is that the PC12 is limited to FL300, you can go to 350. That's huge. I shoulda looked at them way more closely.
Their only downfall is that they are not making them no more. I was doing some yardwork at KFXE today. Every third plane was a PC12. If they resurrected the 441 I think it would do awesome!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 00:16 
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Joined: 06/13/11
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Location: Glen Arm MD Ponte Verdra FL
Aircraft: B58 421 Golden Eagle
This happened to me this morning
When I bought the 421, An A&P told me to keep an extra engine on the shelf. Wish I had listened ...
RAM OH New case 1100 hrs 14yrs old
90 AMUs Gone in 10 seconds
Go turbine!


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 01:19 
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Joined: 01/24/10
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
90,000 is cheap. Think how much it would be if it was a turbine.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 02:33 
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Joined: 01/04/12
Posts: 272
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Aircraft: C441, Extra NG
Username Protected wrote:
90,000 is cheap. Think how much it would be if it was a turbine.


The point is both Martti, myself, and now Alan has had catastrophic engine failures in 421s.

I don't know any who has had an in-flight failure with a TP engine.

The Garrett engines are good for 5000 hours between overhauls, and most make it. They cost around $200k to overhaul at that point (mine cost $160k and $190k), and go for another 5000 hours. I.e. per hour cost is most likely less than for a GTSIO520, and taken into account unscheduled maintenance, less. In addition, at comparable range/payload profile to a 421, a 441 will make it to FL280 in around 15 minutes, where lower fuel burns and 50% higher cruise speeds are enjoyed. My 421 climbed slooowly at high fuel burns...., and used a lot of 100LL fuel priced for single engine airplanes taking on a lot less fuel than a 421.....


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 08:17 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3943
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
I worked for a large, scheduled 135 operator in the late 90's (management position). We had GTSIO's, TSIO's, 331's and PT-6's. I'm still familiar with the operation, but not directly. Remove the external errors from the equation (i.e., Jet-A in the TCM's, FOD, crews taxiing into stuff, etc.).
-I don't remember a single failure of a 331 (we had 38 engines).
-I only remember a couple GTSIO failures (we had 28 of engines). One was a crankshaft failure, one was a connecting rod connection.
-I know of at least three PT-6 failures (we had 13 when I was there, now they have about 40). One additional was caught what they believe was moment's before failure during an inspection for an AD.
-I don't recall one TSIO failure (we had 8 engines).

We had a Maintenance Manager hired from a common engine overhaul shop that managed the pistons. He had a "Come to Jesus" talk with each new-hire before handing them an airplane. We also tried to the best extent possible to keep the same crews in the same airplane so we could track problems back to the crew and "solve" it. We did 100% of our training in the airplanes, and I've simulated engine failures in more GTSIO's and TSIO's than I care to remember during training and checkrides.

We had TBO extensions in our Ops Specs that went to 1800 hours IIRC on the GTSIO's, and almost always made it. It seems like it was the same in the TSIO's, but it's been a while..


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 09:06 
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Joined: 09/05/09
Posts: 3339
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Location: NC
Username Protected wrote:
90,000 is cheap. Think how much it would be if it was a turbine.



I'm thinking... it wouldn't have happened.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 10:24 
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Joined: 07/10/10
Posts: 758
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Location: New Braunfels, TX
Aircraft: Conquest
I owned a 58TC and a 414A, both with TSIO-520's. I was always fighting high cylinder temps and vibration. Consequently, I could count on repairing and replacing accessories on a regular basis.

Now, contrast that with the IO-550's on my straight 58 I owned for nine years. Those engines never gave me trouble. I ran them over TBO with nary a problem and they were turbine smooth.

In the 414A, I had a case crack similar to the one in the photo, and decided I had enough. I've owned the 425 now going on six years and I never touch the engines.

Honestly, I really believe TSIO and GTSIO engines are just unsafe. They're time bombs. And don't talk to me about proper maintenance - I was a mechanic in a former life.

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----Still emotionally attached to my Baron, but loving my Conquest----


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 13:25 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 453
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
yeah, but it's 40kts faster! really torn here.




Preflight’s same speed, taxis the same speed, holds the same speed. “November little plane, turn 30 degrees off course and maintain 140 kts” the same speed.

Door to door trip times aren’t meaningfully different for a 10-15% delta in max cruise


You forgot to mention the drive to and from the airport..

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2021, 14:44 
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To that point, I've flown my 2 hour door to door milk run many times in an A36, Meridian and CJ3. The CJ3 is 15 minutes faster than the Meridian which is 15 minutes faster than the A36. Mission, mission, mission.


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