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28 Mar 2024, 13:06 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 20:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
Whatever Israel, didn’t mean to insult your manhood.

By the way, calling you confused is quite different than saying that you have confused ...but I think an aero lesson is enough for one day


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 20:13 
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Joined: 06/09/09
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Merlin IIIC with 4 blade props turning about 1550 rpm make for a quite ride.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 23 Mar 2021, 22:56 
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Joined: 03/03/11
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
Re: Avanti - from a flight last week.

Fl360 - .646 nm/lb
FL380 - .69 nm/lb
FL40 - .74 nm/lb

All at max rpm and essentially maximum cruise (780 temps on an 820 limit)

Avanti cabin is huge and quiet. Not very long though and doesn’t hold things like skis and bikes that easily.

Avanti is not as bad a runway performer as most people think. There is one that flies out of Palo Alto which is under 3k feet. It could do steamboat, just not at gross.

I don’t think a new 441 would sell well. The specs are awesome but it just doesn’t feel or look modern no matter what avionics it has. That matters to people spending these amounts of money. Meredian (not m600) and cirrus jet have short range and they sell quite well.

Pc12 is a tough one to beat. Simple, awesome safety record, goes anywhere etc. A friend just sold their 2008 NG and bought a new NGX. He said it’s noticeably quieter and will reliably do 285kts. His flight aware tracks indicate that’s accurate. Has bigger windows too and the pics he sent me show they really upgraded the interior.

Edit- poh for 441 I have shows 8000ft accel stop distance is 8000ft at 9800lbs. Avanti is exactly the same. Load Avanti up to 11.5 and it goes to closer to 6k.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 00:31 
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Username Protected wrote:
I don’t think a new 441 would sell well. The specs are awesome but it just doesn’t feel or look modern no matter what avionics it has. That matters to people spending these amounts of money.

King Air doesn't look modern, either, yet it sells, at least somewhat. Its basic design dates from the early 1960s. So "must look modern" is clearly not a requirement.

I'd say the 441 looks more modern, and it actually is. The engine nacelles are works of art when it comes to drag reduction.

Quote:
Re: Avanti - from a flight last week.

Fl360 - .646 nm/lb
FL380 - .69 nm/lb
FL40 - .74 nm/lb

441 at FL350: 372 pph, 306 KTAS = 0.823 nm/lb

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 02:16 
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I gotta tell ya. Feels quite nice to have my aerodynamic breakdown endorsed by the Wright Air Research Center.


Sort of.
“The principal source responsible for noise above 600 cps in the aforementioned aircraft types is the airflow over the fuselage and this noise is found to depend approximately upon the 2.75 power of the indicated air speed”

It’s not saying there’s a linear relationship - I get a 50% noise increase based on the 25kt delta in indicated airspeeds posted earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 07:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
441 at FL350: 372 pph, 306 KTAS = 0.823 nm/lb


Hard to beat a Garrett at fl350! I wonder if many of them are able to do the book numbers up high. Ones I have tracked on FlightAware all seem to be around 280-285kts once they get up to fl350


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 08:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
441 at FL350: 372 pph, 306 KTAS = 0.823 nm/lb


Hard to beat a Garrett at fl350! I wonder if many of them are able to do the book numbers up high. Ones I have tracked on FlightAware all seem to be around 280-285kts once they get up to fl350



I almost always got 300kts at FL350 in my 441 and don't remember ever dropping below 292kts. I overhauled my engines when I bought it, so that could be a contributing factor. I was always amazed at how well it performed up high, including rate of climb. It simply did not run out of steam.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 09:31 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
ISA and colder it will do 300+ KTAS at 350.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 09:59 
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The 441 I fly had fresh HOT's on it, but we would only see about 290 KTAS at FL350. The sweet spot is about FL320. At FL350 we seen as low at 360 PPH. However, we did run it about 430 degrees EGT, or 20 degrees below the red line.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 10:09 
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
Here's the Cruise performance chart from the -10 supplement.
Ours performs very close to book, and at times will beat it.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 15:00 
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Username Protected wrote:

Pc12 is a tough one to beat. Simple, awesome safety record, goes anywhere etc. A friend just sold their 2008 NG and bought a new NGX. He said it’s noticeably quieter and will reliably do 285kts. His flight aware tracks indicate that’s accurate. Has bigger windows too and the pics he sent me show they really upgraded the interior.



That's the camp I'm in. I've flown the CJ3+, P300 and after all is said and done, the PC12 is just so darn good at hauling a lot of stuff a long way at a reasonable cost. I'm slower getting there, but those extra couple of hours on a 7 hour trip don't make that much difference to me.

I also think it's a very, very well made airplane. My current NG is a 265-270kt airplane, depending on load. It's hard to put 5 surfboards, 3 kiteboards, 1 foil, 6 kites, 8 people and their baggage and still go 1,600-1700nm. Going faster and with better range ala the NGX I think is going to be the direction I take.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 15:31 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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why does every thread about specific models have to become about other models? Haha

Obviously the PC12 is an amazing aircraft. Just one very big problem with it, acquisition cost. So it's basically priced itself out of just about every discussion about different models.

Every single PC12 owner thinks its the best and does not understand why everyone does not own one. Haha

Then the Piaggo has to be brought up, then the MU-2 and the KA LOL things do not change.

Pretty sure if the OP wanted to learn more about any of those models he would have just looked at every other thread about planes. Haha


Mike

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 15:40 
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Joined: 01/16/11
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500 mile people hauler :D

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 15:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
why does every thread about specific models have to become about other models? Haha

Obviously the PC12 is an amazing aircraft. Just one very big problem with it, acquisition cost. So it's basically priced itself out of just about every discussion about different models.

Every single PC12 owner thinks its the best and does not understand why everyone does not own one. Haha


great post.

One of the crazy-true counterpoints about the PC12 acq cost is the amazing lack of depreciation. If you look at full costs from purchase to sale, the PC12 shines even more.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 16:30 
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Username Protected wrote:

One of the crazy-true counterpoints about the PC12 acq cost is the amazing lack of depreciation. If you look at full costs from purchase to sale, the PC12 shines even more.


It's amazing, but there is a cost of capital problem, and depending on location the cost of property problem. In California, a Pilatus that's valued at $3M is in excess of $30k in property tax per year alone. But I agree, one of the beauties of a Pilatus is that it has such a deterministic cost structure - perfect for a business with high utilization. Unfortunately, less perfect for those owner/pilots paying for everything with after tax income and using it 150 hours a year.


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