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18 Jun 2021, 18:04 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 18:09 
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 3870
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KSQL
Aircraft: Mitsubishi MU-2B-40
Username Protected wrote:
Come on Jon, 1200? I flew 1350 all the time in my Solitaire, though only VFR at the end kind of days.

Guy I sold it too had done some crazy long range flights. He has made Denver to Boston a few times with not much wind push.

Well... ok, I guess when I’m guesstimating I am conservative, but with good weather at end point I’ve had some pretty long ones. KBED-KGRI-KSQL against decent headwinds, KTUL-KSQL with very light winds. KORL-KLBB-KSQL several times against headwinds. You’re right, perhaps a little better than 1200.

Biggest thing is my experience is usually going all the way coast to coast, so 1200nm is typically enough to be halfway so no point in getting to 1350 because it doesn’t save me a stop.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 22:14 
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Joined: 04/24/18
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
Caravan would be about 3 hours for 500 miles and you could leave leave 600 or so pounds of fuel behind, that would you about 1400-1800 (maybe more) pounds of useful load.

Comfortable, but slow. Great baggage in pod. Pilatus beats it in every category but cubic feet and acquisition price.



and pressurization. and safety. and resale value.


Methinks you read that wackbards...

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 08:19 
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Username Protected wrote:
Caravan would be about 3 hours for 500 miles and you could leave leave 600 or so pounds of fuel behind, that would you about 1400-1800 (maybe more) pounds of useful load.

Comfortable, but slow. Great baggage in pod. Pilatus beats it in every category but cubic feet and acquisition price.



and pressurization. and safety. and resale value.

Pressurization, of course. But I don't see the Caravan as being more unsafe than the Pilatus and the resale value is as good if not better. People are always looking for Caravans due to their versatility.
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 09:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Sounds like a Citation II mission to me. Acquisition cost of sub $500k, high dispatch reliability, ability to top weather, and acceptable speed of 350ktas ( a 500 mile trip is sub 2 hours, so even a 400 knot plane doesn't move the needle much).

Is the dispatch reliability really that high? Seems like there is more to go wrong with a pressurized twin jet.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 10:26 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13361
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Is the dispatch reliability really that high? Seems like there is more to go wrong with a pressurized twin jet.

There really isn't that much to go wrong when you start comparing the nature and quantity of parts involved. Piston engines are terribly complex when you realize everything that has to go exactly right for them to work.

It isn't just the engine that is hugely more reliable, it is that everything else on the airplane is built to a higher standard and isn't being shaken to death by piston vibrations.

I can say my pressurize twin turboprop has been remarkably reliable. Absolutely the most reliable airplane I have ever owned. I am about to find out how my Citation does in the coming years.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 07 Mar 2021, 11:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
Is the dispatch reliability really that high? Seems like there is more to go wrong with a pressurized twin jet.

There really isn't that much to go wrong when you start comparing the nature and quantity of parts involved. Piston engines are terribly complex when you realize everything that has to go exactly right for them to work.

It isn't just the engine that is hugely more reliable, it is that everything else on the airplane is built to a higher standard and isn't being shaken to death by piston vibrations.

I can say my pressurize twin turboprop has been remarkably reliable. Absolutely the most reliable airplane I have ever owned. I am about to find out how my Citation does in the coming years.

Mike C.

Mike, I do wish you well with that and will be interested to see how it works out.

Lots of inspections required with jets. Am I reading this right, a Phase 6 exterior airframe check every two weeks? And this has to be done by an A&P? What are they looking for, bullet holes? https://skyway-mro.com/citation-550-551-inspections/

I wonder if they really can catch everything (or almost everything) with these inspections. It seems like if you are dealing with 40 year old metal that (epecially in an engine) has been subject to various cycles and stresses, it's just simply not going to be as reliable as new equipment. Thinking about that 501 that blew up an engine on takeoff a couple months ago...
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 08:26 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
The 441 is FAST!
This was my TAS yesterday flying to VT from FL.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 20:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
The 441 is FAST!
This was my TAS yesterday flying to VT from FL.


What was the fuel flow? At what weight?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 20:51 
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Joined: 10/04/19
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Company: Brandt & Co.
Location: Jackson Hole, Santa Barbara
Aircraft: a55p2 & tw Pacer
:popcorn:

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 21:22 
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Joined: 01/16/11
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Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Username Protected wrote:
The 441 is FAST!
This was my TAS yesterday flying to VT from FL.


What was the fuel flow? At what weight?


Fuel flow no where near as low as a PC12

Weight, no where near as high as a PC12

My buddy Bill as a conquest and a cj3, prefers the conquest...........
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 22:34 
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
Fuelfow was 540 PPH, props 100%
Weight was around 7800 lbs. I had 1200# fuel left
When I took the pic.
According to book ( dash 10 TPE 331 supplement) could have hit 320+KTAS at 250. It was ISA, so another -10 would have made the conditions perfect. Long story short, the 441 can really cook!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2021, 23:34 
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Joined: 04/22/10
Posts: 644
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Location: Port Vila and sometimes Brisbane
Aircraft: A36 Bonanza
Many years ago now I did several hundred hours in a C441 between jet gigs - truly impressive aeroplane. :cheers:

Quote:
BTW, the Extra NG (mentioned in the article) is now all carbon fiber and has an IO 580, 310 HP for 1400 lbs :-)


Anyone else like a separate thread telling us all about the ExtraNG?

Max? :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 07:08 
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Joined: 09/05/09
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Location: NC
Username Protected wrote:
Fuel flow no where near as low as a PC12

Weight, no where near as high as a PC12

My buddy Bill as a conquest and a cj3, prefers the conquest...........


yeah, but it's 40kts faster! really torn here.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 07:52 
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Joined: 09/02/08
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If you showed up with a 400 series Cessna for a flight, I would rather go commercial.
:D

Wife used to work for Cessna. My favorite comment when I was researching these was from a Sr. Cessna engineer "we never expected the 400 series to be flying this long..."


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2021, 09:36 
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If you showed up with a 400 series Cessna for a flight, I would rather go commercial.
:D

Wife used to work for Cessna. My favorite comment when I was researching these was from a Sr. Cessna engineer "we never expected the 400 series to be flying this long..."

I venture to guess that if you asked a Cessna engineer who worked at the company in the 60s and 70s, they would likely tell you they didn't think ANY of their models would still be flying 50 and 60 years later.

I'll take the 400 series Cessna. You can fly on the cramped, disease laden aluminum tube.

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