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16 Jun 2021, 19:58 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 01:50 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 13357
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEVV
Aircraft: MU-2B-26, C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Piper Cheyenne 400 LS

Won't go 400 knots.

Expensive big block TPE331 engines.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 02:05 
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Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 10771
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Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Avanti, but the BT crowd has already cornered that market.

500 miles, lots of folks, and 1200to 1500 payload.......

Most here would say I would say PC12........but no

Caravan mon, Caravan.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 04:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
Avanti, but the BT crowd has already cornered that market.

500 miles, lots of folks, and 1200to 1500 payload.......

Most here would say I would say PC12........but no

Caravan mon, Caravan.

Why no on the PC-12?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 12:02 
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Joined: 01/04/12
Posts: 271
Post Likes: +95
Aircraft: C441, Extra NG
Username Protected wrote:
Hi,

I am still dreaming of going 400+ knots but haven’t found a plane yet...


Piper Cheyenne 400 LS


According to the below owner in twinandturbine max speed is 351 knots in the 20’s, and cruise speed is around 340 knots. With full fuel payload is around 200 lbs.... The 441 can leave 2 hours of fuel behind and take 8 people 1500 NM, or about the same distance as a new KA-200 can bring 175 lbs.... I looked at a 400 and found the interior to be cramped. Love the performance though. BTW, the Extra NG (mentioned in the article) is now all carbon fiber and has an IO 580, 310 HP for 1400 lbs :-)
https://youtu.be/l4eAXbEtROg


http://twinandturbine.com/article/piper ... t-of-time/

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 12:30 
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Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 10771
Post Likes: +6616
Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Username Protected wrote:
Avanti, but the BT crowd has already cornered that market.

500 miles, lots of folks, and 1200to 1500 payload.......

Most here would say I would say PC12........but no

Caravan mon, Caravan.

Why no on the PC-12?


Trying to stay neutral.

This has PC12 all over it.
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 13:22 
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Joined: 11/06/13
Posts: 338
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Aircraft: C208B, AL18-115
Caravan would be about 3 hours for 500 miles and you could leave leave 600 or so pounds of fuel behind, that would you about 1400-1800 (maybe more) pounds of useful load.

Comfortable, but slow. Great baggage in pod. Pilatus beats it in every category but cubic feet and acquisition price.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 14:19 
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Joined: 09/05/09
Posts: 3211
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Location: NC
Username Protected wrote:
Caravan would be about 3 hours for 500 miles and you could leave leave 600 or so pounds of fuel behind, that would you about 1400-1800 (maybe more) pounds of useful load.

Comfortable, but slow. Great baggage in pod. Pilatus beats it in every category but cubic feet and acquisition price.



and pressurization. and safety. and resale value.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 18:09 
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Joined: 02/09/09
Posts: 3806
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
With full fuel payload is around 200 lbs....


Anyone considering a turbine airplane should get the idea of fuel fuel payload out of their mind. There are some Metroliners that are over MGTOW with full fuel and no crew. There are many turbine aircraft that are near MGTOW with full fuel, but still have a huge range with reduced fuel (i.e., the C-441, SA226/SA227, etc.). Unless you have a good reason to tanker fuel, then all the extra weight does is increase fuel burn.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 19:44 
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Joined: 08/14/13
Posts: 4290
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Aircraft: C90B Nxi
Username Protected wrote:
With full fuel payload is around 200 lbs....


Anyone considering a turbine airplane should get the idea of fuel fuel payload out of their mind. There are some Metroliners that are over MGTOW with full fuel and no crew. There are many turbine aircraft that are near MGTOW with full fuel, but still have a huge range with reduced fuel (i.e., the C-441, SA226/SA227, etc.). Unless you have a good reason to tanker fuel, then all the extra weight does is increase fuel burn.


And as a datapoint, my C90B has a 1200lb useful load when the tanks are slap full with 2600lbs of fuel

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 19:46 
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Joined: 11/30/12
Posts: 989
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Location: Hot 'n High
Aircraft: Various
Username Protected wrote:
With full fuel payload is around 200 lbs....


Anyone considering a turbine airplane should get the idea of fuel fuel payload out of their mind. There are some Metroliners that are over MGTOW with full fuel and no crew. There are many turbine aircraft that are near MGTOW with full fuel, but still have a huge range with reduced fuel (i.e., the C-441, SA226/SA227, etc.). Unless you have a good reason to tanker fuel, then all the extra weight does is increase fuel burn.

Not always. Any quote for max range is always going to be full fuel, so it's worth knowing how you can get max range. And it's not always about max range - sometimes it's max safety. I may fly Juneau to Scottsdale in the summer and be comfortable landing with less than an hour in the tanks, but if I'm going Scottsdale to New Haven in the winter I'm going to want all the reserves I can take.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 19:48 
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Joined: 07/21/08
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Location: Decatur , TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 340,CessnaCub,RV9
Sounds like a Citation II mission to me. Acquisition cost of sub $500k, high dispatch reliability, ability to top weather, and acceptable speed of 350ktas ( a 500 mile trip is sub 2 hours, so even a 400 knot plane doesn't move the needle much).

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C340 recurrent 12/20
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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 20:43 
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 3867
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KSQL
Aircraft: Mitsubishi MU-2B-40
Username Protected wrote:
Anyone considering a turbine airplane should get the idea of fuel fuel payload out of their mind.

I tend to agree.

But really, for any airplane, if full fuel payload is more than a pilot and maybe one other, then to my mind it means the designer should've utilized the empty space better to have bigger fuel tanks...

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 05 Mar 2021, 20:57 
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Joined: 07/21/08
Posts: 4672
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Location: Decatur , TX (XA99)
Aircraft: 340,CessnaCub,RV9
Username Protected wrote:
Anyone considering a turbine airplane should get the idea of fuel fuel payload out of their mind.

I tend to agree.

But really, for any airplane, if full fuel payload is more than a pilot and maybe one other, then to my mind it means the designer should've utilized the empty space better to have bigger fuel tanks...

Thats easy to say for MU2 guy. Ya'll can circle the globe on a tank of gas.... :D
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C340 recurrent 12/20
C500 PIC type 6/20


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 12:01 
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Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 3867
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KSQL
Aircraft: Mitsubishi MU-2B-40
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Thats easy to say for MU2 guy. Ya'll can circle the globe on a tank of gas.... :D

The range on the MU2 is pretty good, but not truly stellar. I figure about 1200nm, maybe a touch more, given no RVSM. Using the original ceiling of 31000 would get another couple hundred NM probably, but not allowed these days.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 06 Mar 2021, 14:52 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1254
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Aircraft: Solitaire
Come on Jon, 1200? I flew 1350 all the time in my Solitaire, though only VFR at the end kind of days.

Guy I sold it too had done some crazy long range flights. He has made Denver to Boston a few times with not much wind push.


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