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16 Sep 2021, 06:56 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 16:38 
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Location: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Aircraft: PC12NG, G3Tat
Florida :D

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 21:31 
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:D


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 24 Mar 2021, 22:01 
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That's in Georgia, and that fella is ripped!!! :D

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2021, 17:25 
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Location: KAPA
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Username Protected wrote:

Pc12 is a tough one to beat. Simple, awesome safety record, goes anywhere etc. A friend just sold their 2008 NG and bought a new NGX. He said it’s noticeably quieter and will reliably do 285kts. His flight aware tracks indicate that’s accurate. Has bigger windows too and the pics he sent me show they really upgraded the interior.



That's the camp I'm in. I've flown the CJ3+, P300 and after all is said and done, the PC12 is just so darn good at hauling a lot of stuff a long way at a reasonable cost. I'm slower getting there, but those extra couple of hours on a 7 hour trip don't make that much difference to me.

I also think it's a very, very well made airplane. My current NG is a 265-270kt airplane, depending on load. It's hard to put 5 surfboards, 3 kiteboards, 1 foil, 6 kites, 8 people and their baggage and still go 1,600-1700nm. Going faster and with better range ala the NGX I think is going to be the direction I take.


A hard question to answer since the airplane doesn't exist, but have you considered the Denali?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2021, 17:43 
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Username Protected wrote:

A hard question to answer since the airplane doesn't exist, but have you considered the Denali?


Nope, don't think it will be better than the PC12. Their manufacturing is second to none IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 11:34 
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Circling back as the OP to report on what I have decided. I have leased a straight CJ and passed my check ride for the 525S rating last week. I think this will serve my mission well and so far I really like it. I can only get 6 people in addition to pilot but in reality that suffices almost all of the time. I have this leased for 6 months and will be looking for one to purchase. I am not sure if it will be a CJ, CJ1 or 1+ yet, depends on what I find available. I am leaning toward a straight CJ and putting the complete Jettech panel in it with the Garmin AP. The plus has FADEC, which would be nice but effectively doubled the acquisition cost. I would loved to here thoughts on people’s experiences with Pro line 21 versus the Garmin panel and FADEC vs not.

Enjoyed all the posts on this.

Thanks

Bryan


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 12:44 
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Congrats on the CJ. Great choice. :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 19:54 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
After flying a C-441 for a while, I flew in a straight CJ for a 12 hour trip. I was completely....underwhelmed. The only positive that I seen was it was a jet. It was slow, pathetic range, and landing fees were significantly more everyplace. The cockpit is much more comfortable in the 441.

If it were my own personal money, I'd take a 441 any day over a straight CJ. I have zero experience with the other models...


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2021, 22:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
Circling back as the OP to report on what I have decided. I have leased a straight CJ and passed my check ride for the 525S rating last week. I think this will serve my mission well and so far I really like it. I can only get 6 people in addition to pilot but in reality that suffices almost all of the time. I have this leased for 6 months and will be looking for one to purchase. I am not sure if it will be a CJ, CJ1 or 1+ yet, depends on what I find available. I am leaning toward a straight CJ and putting the complete Jettech panel in it with the Garmin AP. The plus has FADEC, which would be nice but effectively doubled the acquisition cost. I would loved to here thoughts on people’s experiences with Pro line 21 versus the Garmin panel and FADEC vs not.

Enjoyed all the posts on this.

Thanks

Bryan

Congratulations, Bryan.

Would be intereresting to know more details of the lease and how the cost compares to owning the same plane.

How does the insurance work? Does the leasing company provide the insurance as part of the lease rate or did they require you to bring your own? What kind of minimum experience do they require?

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 11 Apr 2021, 09:18 
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Joined: 05/08/13
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Company: Citation Jet Exchange
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: C510 C525 58P 310R
I would go for a CJ with the Garmin panel - mainly over cost and reliability. Collins is NOT cheap in any aspect to repair. Garmin is, comparatively speaking, to honeywell and collins. Example: We could have swapped out a Garmin G3000 PFD tube on our M2 for about $2000. I'm told some of the old honeywell tubes are $50k.

Collins PL21 while useful, is basically a giant garmin G5. The attitude indicator portion is just that, as well as a giant HSI. No frills. The MFD provides minimal information for SA.

The non-integrated Collins has it's limitations as far as loading an ILS, and inability to shoot an LPV approach.

We fly a CJ single pilot, and the GTN 750's were my requirement to ease the workload. I'd suggest the GTN 750s on any of the CJ series.

-Citation Jet Exchange


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 09:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
Congratulations, Bryan.

Would be intereresting to know more details of the lease and how the cost compares to owning the same plane.

How does the insurance work? Does the leasing company provide the insurance as part of the lease rate or did they require you to bring your own? What kind of minimum experience do they require?


The lease has a base monthly amount and an hourly depletion, together they are very close to what owning the plane would cost if it were on programs, TAP BLUE and pro parts, the base lease is roughly equivalent to what the cost of capital would be. It is an exclusive lease and the plane is based at my home field. I got my own insurance and named the owner as additional insured and loss payee. The requirements were dictated by my insurance company. When I started the process I had 1500 TT 800 turbine and no multi. I first got my multi in a baron, insurance required 50 hrs mentor/ instructor time and sim training prior to solo in the jet. I started the multi training in the Baron on March 14th, I now have 64 hrs in the jet and the 525S type rating. I’m doing the sim training at LOFT this week April 12 through the 14th, so it’s taken 1 month from start to meeting insurance requirements to fly the jet. It’s been an intense month a lot of work but I’ve really enjoyed it and I’m a better pilot for it. This has been a good way to go for me, I didn’t want to sell my meridian and commit to buying a jet before going through the type rating process and paying the bills for a bit flying a Jet. At this point I’m pretty sure I will end up buying a jet but I haven’t sold the Meridian yet. No matter what happens it’s been a really fun experience and no outcome is bad, I do really like flying the Meridian, it’s just limited on carrying capacity and I have a good business case to utilize the jet, so anyway it turns out life is good.

Bryan


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 12 Apr 2021, 09:29 
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Joined: 08/15/11
Posts: 1615
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Location: Mandan, ND
Aircraft: 200, C90, V35
Username Protected wrote:
Congratulations, Bryan.

Would be intereresting to know more details of the lease and how the cost compares to owning the same plane.

How does the insurance work? Does the leasing company provide the insurance as part of the lease rate or did they require you to bring your own? What kind of minimum experience do they require?


The lease has a base monthly amount and an hourly depletion, together they are very close to what owning the plane would cost if it were on programs, TAP BLUE and pro parts, the base lease is roughly equivalent to what the cost of capital would be. It is an exclusive lease and the plane is based at my home field. I got my own insurance and named the owner as additional insured and loss payee. The requirements were dictated by my insurance company. When I started the process I had 1500 TT 800 turbine and no multi. I first got my multi in a baron, insurance required 50 hrs mentor/ instructor time and sim training prior to solo in the jet. I started the multi training in the Baron on March 14th, I now have 64 hrs in the jet and the 525S type rating. I’m doing the sim training at LOFT this week April 12 through the 14th, so it’s taken 1 month from start to meeting insurance requirements to fly the jet. It’s been an intense month a lot of work but I’ve really enjoyed it and I’m a better pilot for it. This has been a good way to go for me, I didn’t want to sell my meridian and commit to buying a jet before going through the type rating process and paying the bills for a bit flying a Jet. At this point I’m pretty sure I will end up buying a jet but I haven’t sold the Meridian yet. No matter what happens it’s been a really fun experience and no outcome is bad, I do really like flying the Meridian, it’s just limited on carrying capacity and I have a good business case to utilize the jet, so anyway it turns out life is good.

Bryan


That's a great story! Congrats!

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 14 Apr 2021, 22:52 
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Joined: 06/17/14
Posts: 3516
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Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
1 - Thank you so much for circling back and sharing!
2 - I am in the wrong business!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2021, 01:57 
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Posts: 804
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Location: KAPA
Aircraft: C340A
What about a IIIC? Seems a bit bigger than a 441, but prices are lower. Why is that?

Also looks like I will be in a 441 soon. Curious if anyone has the 5 bladed MTs. If anyone knows of a Mentor pilot in the Denver area with 441 time let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 01 Sep 2021, 15:32 
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Joined: 06/09/09
Posts: 4358
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Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
Username Protected wrote:
What about a IIIC? Seems a bit bigger than a 441, but prices are lower. Why is that?

Also looks like I will be in a 441 soon. Curious if anyone has the 5 bladed MTs. If anyone knows of a Mentor pilot in the Denver area with 441 time let me know.


John, the IIIC Merlin is has a 62"wide x 57" tall x 209" (aft of cockpit divider) long cabin. The C441 is 55" wide x 51" tall x 168" (aft of cockpit divider) long cabin. The Merlin design is based on redundancy or a "dual, fail safe" concept. Dual tires all around. Dual, one piece, full length main spars. It is a very stout purpose built twin turboprop that did not come out of a piston design. As a result it is heavier than the C441 and has a lower service ceiling (F310). The Merlin has a cabin diff of 7 psi compared to 6.3 in the C441. C441 has the ability to go higher if you don't mind the cabin alt and there is efficiency to be gained there.

Several years ago I overhauled the Dowty props on the Merlin. I was about ready to go with the MT's but decided to stick with the known safe original prop instead of converting. I recall reading somewhere that MT props were tried on C441 but there were problems (as in nearly loosing the aircraft) and it was scrapped. Maybe you know about that as I no longer recall the details or where I read that.


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