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23 Jul 2021, 14:53 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 03:12 
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N100L 421C
421 is hard to beat speed and load and cost all in. I would love to move up and may, but it’s going to cost a lot. You have to spend double the cost to beat the 421.

I fly 300hr a year and do not have that many problems. It’s fast and can carry a lot. It’s as big as many of the double cost competitors and super quiet.

Don’t get me wrong a MU2 or a CJ would be cool, buts it’s a different category in cost to operate.

I was at FL270 doing 230true at 37gph total today. 100LL
Isn’t bad, it may be soon but right now and the last year I have been averaging 4.25 gallon. Not bad considering my plane as a clean all modern panel with new digital AP that cost $450k. Hard to beat. For me to get a clean TP or jet of same
Caliber it’s $900k plus.


Mike

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 07:02 
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Username Protected wrote:
RAM OH New case 1100 hrs 14yrs old
90 AMUs Gone in 10 seconds


Not really.

That engine was 70% of TBO hours and 120% of TBO Calendar.

Besides, you could repair it for less than $25K .

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Last edited on 13 Mar 2021, 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 07:27 
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90,000 is cheap. Think how much it would be if it was a turbine.



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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 09:53 
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Joined: 12/15/10
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Location: Burlington VT KBTV
Aircraft: C441 N441WD
Username Protected wrote:
421 is hard to beat speed and load and cost all in. I would love to move up and may, but it’s going to cost a lot. You have to spend double the cost to beat the 421.

I fly 300hr a year and do not have that many problems. It’s fast and can carry a lot. It’s as big as many of the double cost competitors and super quiet.

Don’t get me wrong a MU2 or a CJ would be cool, buts it’s a different category in cost to operate.

I was at FL270 doing 230true at 37gph total today. 100LL
Isn’t bad, it may be soon but right now and the last year I have been averaging 4.25 gallon. Not bad considering my plane as a clean all modern panel with new digital AP that cost $450k. Hard to beat. For me to get a clean TP or jet of same
Caliber it’s $900k plus.


Mike

When the 421C is working it’s a fantastic plane. Unfortunately with me and many others that just wasn’t the case. Too much downtime and then the loss of the critical engine after rotation sealed it for me.
There are too many moving parts trying to squeeze out 375Hp.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 10:37 
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Username Protected wrote:
There are too many moving parts trying to squeeze out 375Hp.


I tend to agree on this point.

Turbine engines just want to spin. Simple. Meanwhile the big bore pistons are a bit complex. Efficient and when they’re dialed in they’re great...but heavy, complex and you’re just damn lucky if you have all 12 cylinders pumping perfectly as they should for the long run.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 11:10 
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... You have to spend double the cost to beat the 421.

I fly 300hr a year and do not have that many problems.

I suspect at 300 hrs per year you would find moving up to a turbine to be not much more overall annual budget. Maybe a bit. But not that much. Nothing close to double.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 11:52 
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
... You have to spend double the cost to beat the 421.

I fly 300hr a year and do not have that many problems.

I suspect at 300 hrs per year you would find moving up to a turbine to be not much more overall annual budget. Maybe a bit. But not that much. Nothing close to double.


You are probably right, at least it you keep your blinders on and only look at direct costs. However, in most cases, you'll spend at least double in acquisition cost to buy a equivalent equipped turbine aircraft, twice as much to insure it, double (or more) the cost for annual training required by an insurance company and double or more for landing fees. What's a SOAP sample cost on your TPE-331? The SOAP costs along tripled about two years ago and each one cost most than you would pay for oil changes in both engines on a C-421.

Heaven forbid you have an insurance claim and have to comply with an AD or SB, or some part that would have made it to TBO requires replacement due to wear at teardown.

I'd have to go back and look, but a C-441 took a lightning strike at some unknown time. The claim was $85k, and very little was damaged. I doubt it would have been anywhere near that in a C-421 or equivalent.

But yes, if I could only look at fuel cost, I'd have a turbine airplane in the hangar today... Apples and oranges...

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 12:52 
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Location: Concord , CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
The large 441 repair and MX facility on the west coast in Fresno CA is Technicair.

They always have about half dozen 441’s in there for MX. When I am there I walk around and talk to the mechanics doing the MX.

The cost of the repairs on the 441 is eye watering to say the least!! Most of the 441 fleet are now high time and high MX. It’s not the engines, it’s the other expenses like cracks in the tail, cracks in the wing, fuel tank leaks etc. plus all the inspections which usually find other things wrong.

The 441 is a great plane, but it is not cheap to operate and the more total time on these planes the expenses go up.

I have run one set of engines out to TBO on my 421C and I am working on my second set of engines. Yes the GTISO is complicated compared to a turbine but with proper operation, diligence and care they are solid reliable engines. There is nothing better than two well maintained engines.

These engines only require a pilot with an IQ above room temperature.


Last edited on 13 Mar 2021, 13:30, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 12:56 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N100L 421C
Jason you are right.

My loan payment on the next step up would be $3500 more per month. Pretty sure maintenance and other cost will be more on a twin TP or Jet. Larger and more hangar cost. And I get the feeling you pay more for everything when you show up in a Jet. They feel bad for me in my old piston so I don’t get hit with crazy cost.

If you say Opex is the same between 421 and a MU2 the rest of the cost will be a lot more.

Not saying it would not be worth it and I have been seriously looking at a upgrade. But it’s going to cost a lot more than what I have now. And with a twin TP and or Jet you can have a huge gotcha one day. There are no cheap parts on jets.

With my 421 I land at Van Nuys and park in the prop park for free. I get self service fuel and do everything myself. If I had a TP or Jet I have to go to FBO and pay parking and handling, and tip the line guys. That alone adds up on my trip cost. May seem silly to care about that kind of stuff but I hate paying for nothing.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2021, 15:38 
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Location: San Carlos, CA - KSQL
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My loan payment on the next step up would be $3500 more per month. Pretty sure maintenance and other cost will be more on a twin TP or Jet. Larger and more hangar cost. And I get the feeling you pay more for everything when you show up in a Jet. They feel bad for me in my old piston so I don’t get hit with crazy cost.

If you say Opex is the same between 421 and a MU2 the rest of the cost will be a lot more.

I’m not one who says owning and operating a turbine costs the same as a piston. It doesn’t. But the costs tend to be different, and to some degree depend on your use and the specifics of the model in question. At 300 hrs/yr you would be a pretty good candidate to maximize the advantages of a turbine, I would think.

I owned a 340 before my MU2. I think the cost of owning a 340 vs a 421 are in the ballpark, 421 maybe a small increment more.

You are right about capital costs. Those are very straightforward to assess. In today’s low interest rate environment capital is relatively cheap but not free. There are related costs like property taxes in some states or localities that are also based on value, and unfortunately those are the gift that keeps giving, the basic capital outlay for used aircraft often mostly comes back eventually (new aircraft depreciate wildly). My Solitaire is worth roughly double what my 340 was, it’s current valuation is similar to or better than when I bought it 10 years ago.

Mx costs tend to be different. More predictable, more based around defined inspection events. Sometimes irritating in items that are dictated by maintenance programs! 340 maintenance was lots of dribs and drabs and fixes. I had worse “worst” years in the 340 than the MU2 (better “best” ones also).

Insurance is not as different as you might imagine. It is somewhat dependent on type, SETP seemed pretty reasonable based on hull value for example. Mine was not double what the 340 was even though my hull value was double. It has risen the past year or so like all aviation insurance, for sure, but I’m told that affects piston operators too.

At 300 hrs per year some of the fixed costs begin to take a back seat to direct costs, and that’s where I find the reliability improves the overall picture, especially if you value your ability to use the plane on demand. You burn more fuel, but fuel is cheaper. You have way less oil change events. Less trips to the shop in general.

Final thought, 441 is a magnificent machine but is acknowledged as not cheap to maintain. So I would not compare a 421 to a 441 and generalize that all turbines are proportionately that much more costly. 425 would compare better. So would MU2. As would most SETP.

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 05:59 
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Couple things

1) 421 is not an 8 person airplane if all 8 people are potty trained. Get real numbers and try to make the CG work with two adults in the back.

2) mu2 service center on the field? Done deal. Make your life easy.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 13:36 
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Joined: 11/19/15
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Company: Centurion LV and Eleusis
Location: Draper UT KPVU-KVNY
Aircraft: N100L 421C
The 421 is a solid 6 adult with bags plane.

But that’s with most planes. A PA46 is a 3 maybe 4 adult plane with bags for very short trips

Could easily fill all 8 seats in a 421 if you had kids.

CG is a challenge if you don’t have bags to put up front in the 421. We often fly with 6 adults. Myself and my boys are 6’5” so we are not small adults. The 421 is perfect for us at 500nm missions.

Mike

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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 14 Mar 2021, 14:09 
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Aircraft: 1967 Baron B55
I have some 25 pound bags of lead shot I keep in the hangar.
Usually one or two bags in the nose baggage compartment placed all the way forward solves the problem.


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 10:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
The 421 is a solid 6 adult with bags plane.

But that’s with most planes.


For almost all legacy GA airplanes:

Count the number of seats.

Subtract 2.

That's the number of adults that can comfortably travel long distances in that plane.

Yes, that includes the Cessna 150. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 500 mile people hauler 421C vs 425 vs 441
PostPosted: 15 Mar 2021, 10:32 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yes, that includes the Cessna 150. ;)


:lol: :rofl:

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