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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 31 Jan 2021, 14:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXCwtEy621o&feature=youtu.be

And it takes off!

And the takeoff was downwind! I wonder how heavy he was?

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 02:07 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAb8BhxI3kQ&feature=youtu.be

I've done that!


Hi Michael and everyone,

First post for me here on BT.

I'm SEL/Instrument, haven't flown in years but have decided to get back into flying, mostly as a way to introduce my kids to aviation. Plan to get the MEL this summer (probably in a DA-42) as I may ultimately be flying with 7-8 people and that's mostly twin territory, though of course there are a few turbine singles that can do that.

Never seriously thought about a 501 before, but when you consider the engine out safety and ability to fly over most weather, the extra cost over a prop twin or turbine single starts to look worthwhile.

However, one possible deal-killer is that I would likely want to visit some (longer) turf strips and was always under the impression that this is a big no-no for jets.

But then I saw the video at Triple Tree.

I thought the AFM required a paved runway, unless a gravel kit is installed and I haven't seen those available for a 501. Also, could you please comment on how much longer your takeoff was on grass compared to what it would have been on a paved runway?

Thank You,

Ian

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 15:38 
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I don't think the gravel kit is required for operation on unpaved surfaces. There are other jets including the 20 series Lears that had such kits. I know that Part 135 ops specs often prohibit landing on unpaved runways, but as a private owner? I don't think there's anything beyond your insurance that would prevent you.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 16:01 
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Hi John,

I think the concern is that if the AFM prohibits operations on non-paved surfaces, then you'd technically be violating the FAR's if you did so. However, I just saw one of Michael's posts on the 501 thread and apparently the 501 AFM does have figures for operations on "sod" runways. Would love to see those numbers.

Seems like landing jets on unprepared runways is not in high demand so far, but maybe Cessna is keeping an eye on the PC-24 and if its grass/dirt capabilities turn out to be a hit, Cessna will have to respond in some way. Cessna already apparently responded to the PC-12 with the Denali.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 18:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Interesting testing & analysis in this clip.

And some great footage.

[youtube]http://youtu.be/QNz4gcf76jE[/youtube]

I hope they filled and rolled the runway after they got done. They put some pretty deep ruts in a runway used by light planes and gliders.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 20:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXCwtEy621o&feature=youtu.be

And it takes off!

And the takeoff was downwind! I wonder how heavy he was?


I don't remember there being much wind that day but I think we had around 2000lbs of fuel and around 800lbs of people. I'm fairly certain that the Triple Tree Airboss set the runway in use too. I can see it really struggled to get in the air.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 20:07 
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Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
Username Protected wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAb8BhxI3kQ&feature=youtu.be

I've done that!


Hi Michael and everyone,

First post for me here on BT.

I'm SEL/Instrument, haven't flown in years but have decided to get back into flying, mostly as a way to introduce my kids to aviation. Plan to get the MEL this summer (probably in a DA-42) as I may ultimately be flying with 7-8 people and that's mostly twin territory, though of course there are a few turbine singles that can do that.

Never seriously thought about a 501 before, but when you consider the engine out safety and ability to fly over most weather, the extra cost over a prop twin or turbine single starts to look worthwhile.

However, one possible deal-killer is that I would likely want to visit some (longer) turf strips and was always under the impression that this is a big no-no for jets.

But then I saw the video at Triple Tree.

I thought the AFM required a paved runway, unless a gravel kit is installed and I haven't seen those available for a 501. Also, could you please comment on how much longer your takeoff was on grass compared to what it would have been on a paved runway?

Thank You,

Ian


Totally legal, no gravel kit needed, charts are published. I can tell almost no difference in hard sod versus pavement with respect to takeoff distance. I've taken every airplane I've owned into grass strips and have a house at one. Sod is a much better surface for airplanes than pavement IMO. 3000 feet of sod would probably be my limit on a 501.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 20:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
Totally legal, no gravel kit needed, charts are published.

The 501 is one of the few Citations which allows turf in stock configuration, though it does prohibit gravel runways without a kit.

The 550, 551, 560 don't, paved only, unless gravel kit installed.

Quote:
I can tell almost no difference in hard sod versus pavement with respect to takeoff distance.

You will notice if an engine fails just before V1 and want to stop.

Otherwise, turf will lengthen a normal takeoff a tiny amount due to a slight increase in rolling friction.

Quote:
Sod is a much better surface for airplanes than pavement IMO.

Agreed, far less wear and tear on the airplane that hard surface. It just doesn't provide the same braking.

Quote:
3000 feet of sod would probably be my limit on a 501.

Not in the morning with dew on it...

There is a big difference between buffalo grass on a hot dry afternoon day and fine fescue on a moist morning. The variability in braking action is one reason to be particularly cautious on turf runways when you depend on braking.

For a turboprop, no issue, we don't use brakes. One of the downsides of moving out of turboprops is that I will no longer be able to land at my brother's field, the best turf runway in all of Kansas, IMO. All things are compromises.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2021, 22:59 
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Appreciate the responses, guys.

So it looks like the risk of FOD on turf is manageable?

Well noted that the 501 requires a kit for gravel. Have seen a kit for the 550 (which apparently requires you to have two pilots) but not the 501.

Not a big prob as I don't anticipate travelling to northern Canada much, but something to keep in mind.

Alaska, Montana and Idaho have some great, fairly long turf strips. But I would probably land/takeoff with min fuel and go VFR to the nearest airport with Jet-A to refuel on the way out. (Have to factor in the weight of the 8" telescope, however).

So the plan is do the MEL this summer in Seattle, get some multi time, then do the type rating in a couple years. I'm in Kuwait most of the year and can't practically train here or even keep an airplane here (would love to, though, for weekend trips to Turkey, Europe, etc. - and Jet-A is so cheap here!)

I could potentially see my brother (lives near S50) and I sharing the costs. He's not rated yet but has tons of sim time and probably can fly IFR better than me at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 00:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
So it looks like the risk of FOD on turf is manageable?

Risk of FOD on a well kept turf runway is minimal.

There are definitely "paved" runways which are far higher risk of FOD than some turf runways. I've seen some "paved" runways that have so many cracks and weeds growing through them that they mow them.

Quote:
Alaska, Montana and Idaho have some great, fairly long turf strips.

I saw a Citation V with a gravel kit that spent almost all of its life in Alaska hauling men and equipment around to service radar systems. There are some pics of it on this web site:

https://www.jetaviva.com/inventory/1520 ... ion-560-(V)/560-0029

The gravel kit consists of a nosewheel spin up kit, armored flaps, and AFM supplement. Here is the nosewheel dohickey:
Attachment:
citation-gravel-kit-1.png

Quote:
But I would probably land/takeoff with min fuel and go VFR to the nearest airport with Jet-A to refuel on the way out.

You may find the extra time to do that, plus the extra cycle on the airplane, particularly a jet, isn't worth just going to the paved runway nearby and driving to your ultimate destination.

You may also find your insurance won't cover turf operations. There's more risk and variability in the results.

Mike C.


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Last edited on 18 Feb 2021, 10:23, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 01:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
So it looks like the risk of FOD on turf is manageable?

Risk of FOD on a well kept turf runway is minimal.

There are definitely "paved" runways which are far higher risk of FOD than some turf runways. I've seen some "paved" runways that have so many cracks and weeds growing through them that they mow them.

Quote:
Alaska, Montana and Idaho have some great, fairly long turf strips.

I saw a Citation V with a gravel kit that spent almost all of its life in Alaska hauling men and equipment around to service radar systems. There are some pics of it on this web site:

https://www.jetaviva.com/inventory/1520 ... ion-560-(V)/560-0029

The gravel kit consists of a nosewheel pin up kit, armored flaps, and AFM supplement. Here is the nosewheel dohickey:
Attachment:
citation-gravel-kit-1.png

Quote:
But I would probably land/takeoff with min fuel and go VFR to the nearest airport with Jet-A to refuel on the way out.

You may find the extra time to do that, plus the extra cycle on the airplane, particularly a jet, isn't worth just going to the paved runway nearby and driving to your ultimate destination.

You may also find your insurance won't cover turf operations. There's more risk and variability in the results.

Mike C.


Another Citation with a gravel kit, N590AK, had a runway excursion up in Alaska. The system didn't allow for nosewheel disconnect and because the pilot was landing with some rudder input, the nosewheel touched down uncentered. Due to the soft nature of gravel, the nosewheel couldn't self-center and off the runway they went.

Insurance is another issue I need to look into. I tend to only buy whatever insurance is required by law.

Noticed you are in the 'Tute alumni directory. Years ago I used to work for another alumnus and pilot, Norm Hernandez. Sadly he died when his Yak ran out of oil and he couldn't put it down safely.
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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 01:43 
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Insurance is another issue I need to look into. I tend to only buy whatever insurance is required by law.

There is no insurance requirement in the USA. With the way the current market is, more pilots are going without these days.

Lenders will require insurance.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 02:31 
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Insurance is another issue I need to look into. I tend to only buy whatever insurance is required by law.

There is no insurance requirement in the USA. With the way the current market is, more pilots are going without these days.

Lenders will require insurance.

Mike C.

At the federal level no insurance is required as far as I know.

However, I believe some states (not Washington) require aircraft to have at least third party liability insurance (not for overflights as this is likely out of their jurisdiction). How they would check that you have insurance without asking you, I have no idea. Not sure if the requirement only applies to aircraft registered in the particular state.

In the past I always flew rented aircraft that presumably were insured so I never looked into this. No one ever asked me to show an insurance card for that matter.

In the rest of the world it's almost always required. The UK aviation authorities even have an online calculator to help you determine the minimum policy.
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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 10:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
However, I believe some states (not Washington) require aircraft to have at least third party liability insurance

Which states require it and what liability limits do they require?

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 11:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
However, I believe some states (not Washington) require aircraft to have at least third party liability insurance

Which states require it and what liability limits do they require?

Mike C.

I found this.

I tried to upload the entire pdf but it didn't work.

Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

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