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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 15:06 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I tried to upload the entire pdf but it didn't work.

Then provide the link so others can view.

I wasn't aware of any Indiana requirement (being a resident myself), so I looked it up:

https://statecodesfiles.justia.com/indi ... pter-3.pdf

Points to take away:

1. Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) *may* require you to furnish proof of financial responsibility. I have never been asked for this, nor anyone I know, or even been informed of this possibility.

2. Does not apply to non residents. It really can't due to Federal jurisdiction on interstate commerce.

3. Requirement is $20,000 max liability for any one accident, which is effectively zero.

4. The basic rules are from a law from 1951, 70 years ago.

Translation: effectively zero net effect on me, so much so, I didn't even know this existed.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 16:01 
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Joined: 03/28/17
Posts: 6626
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Location: N. California
Aircraft: C-182
Username Protected wrote:
Totally legal, no gravel kit needed, charts are published.

The 501 is one of the few Citations which allows turf in stock configuration, though it does prohibit gravel runways without a kit.

The 550, 551, 560 don't, paved only, unless gravel kit installed.

Quote:
I can tell almost no difference in hard sod versus pavement with respect to takeoff distance.

You will notice if an engine fails just before V1 and want to stop.

Otherwise, turf will lengthen a normal takeoff a tiny amount due to a slight increase in rolling friction.

Quote:
Sod is a much better surface for airplanes than pavement IMO.

Agreed, far less wear and tear on the airplane that hard surface. It just doesn't provide the same braking.

Quote:
3000 feet of sod would probably be my limit on a 501.

Not in the morning with dew on it...

There is a big difference between buffalo grass on a hot dry afternoon day and fine fescue on a moist morning. The variability in braking action is one reason to be particularly cautious on turf runways when you depend on braking.

For a turboprop, no issue, we don't use brakes. One of the downsides of moving out of turboprops is that I will no longer be able to land at my brother's field, the best turf runway in all of Kansas, IMO. All things are compromises.

Mike C.


We bought our Lear 24 from a Canadian oil and gas exploration company that flew it out to sites that had gravel runways, and the gravel kit was a chined nose tire and armored flaps, and it also had a drag chute.

We based the plane at the boss's ranch with a 3000 foot dirt strip. We tried the drag chute a couple of times but it just wasn't that effective with the low ref speed of 98 knots with the Dee Howard wing mod and Dee Howard quick deploying hydraulic reversers, and we had pretty good braking action on the compacted strip, so we took the drag chute out. The chart below shows the effectiveness of the drag chute at various speeds.

Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Feb 2021, 16:40 
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Username Protected wrote:
I tried to upload the entire pdf but it didn't work.

Then provide the link so others can view.



https://www.gao.gov/mobile/products/GAO-15-740
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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2021, 00:06 
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Joined: 02/20/09
Posts: 624
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Location: Durham, NC
Aircraft: Piper Arrow II
Username Protected wrote:
I tried to upload the entire pdf but it didn't work.

Then provide the link so others can view.

I wasn't aware of any Indiana requirement (being a resident myself), so I looked it up:

https://statecodesfiles.justia.com/indi ... pter-3.pdf

Points to take away:

1. Indiana Department of Transportation (INDOT) *may* require you to furnish proof of financial responsibility. I have never been asked for this, nor anyone I know, or even been informed of this possibility.


INDOT has no discretion in this matter. Indiana statutes require minimum financial responsibility. IC 9-25-4.

Quote:
2. Does not apply to non residents. It really can't due to Federal jurisdiction on interstate commerce.
Yes minimum financial liability laws do apply to non-residents. ...

Quote:
4. The basic rules are from a law from 1951, 70 years ago.
indeed Indiana needs to update it's minimums.

Quote:
Translation: effectively zero net effect on me, so much so, I didn't even know this existed.
Don't have an aircraft accident that is your fault without insurance. You can lose your driving privileges and have all your motor vehicle registrations cancelled.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2021, 01:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
INDOT has no discretion in this matter. Indiana statutes require minimum financial responsibility. IC 9-25-4.

The correct statute is IC 8-21-3-2:

"The department may require proof of financial responsibility for a period of one (1) year in the manner provided for in this chapter."

Notice the word "may".

You confused having financial responsibility with the requirement to provide proof. INDOT has the discretion to not require proof, as I said, per the above statute.

Quote:
Don't have an aircraft accident that is your fault without insurance.

The statute says you have to have financial responsibility, not necessarily insurance.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2021, 20:15 
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Location: Durham, NC
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Username Protected wrote:
The statute says you have to have financial responsibility, not necessarily insurance.


I believe you are reading one statute in a way that no court in Indiana has ever read it before. But, this is why I should not try to offer legal information over the internet. I will end this discussion with this admonition: This is not legal advice, and, you should seek the counsel of an attorney if you plan to operate an aircraft in Indiana without insurance or posting the required bond. I rest assured that my interpritation of the law is that which will prevail in court, not yours.


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 23 Feb 2021, 21:44 
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
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Username Protected wrote:
...if you plan to operate an aircraft in Indiana without insurance or posting the required bond.

As I said, you aren't required to have insurance, there are other ways.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2021, 17:31 
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[youtube]https://youtu.be/XhYTfOTcw64[/youtube]

Naughty Dutch pilots... :eek:

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Last edited on 18 Apr 2021, 16:12, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2021, 03:45 
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Joined: 01/15/13
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Location: Europe
Aircraft: Mooney M20F
not as naughty as those ones doing touch n goes in a Fokker 100
https://dai.ly/x2tojca

Texel’s grass runway is quite long and the surface is firm so larger aircraft are not that uncommon


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2021, 08:34 
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Joined: 06/23/09
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Company: Dermatology
Location: ChattanoogaDayton, TN (2A0)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
I hope Chuck Perry sees this he used to fly Fokker’s in PNG. As someone who has been in the back going into some short :bugeye: fields it is a can do jet.

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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2021, 10:19 
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Joined: 11/01/08
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[youtube]http://youtu.be/JXRhchxFVWY[/youtube]


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2021, 12:58 
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Joined: 08/26/16
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Aircraft: Seabee
How about a 737 inside a grass 4500' strip?

https://youtu.be/aOpBXmqa0eY


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2021, 19:39 
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Joined: 04/29/13
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Aircraft: C177RG, ATOS-VR
And the TACA flight 110: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TACA_Flight_110
Dead sticks it onto a levee. They flew it out once it was repaired.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: PC-24 Grass Field Landing and Takeoff
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2021, 21:19 
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Joined: 08/10/14
Posts: 1730
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Location: Northwest Arkansas (KVBT)
Aircraft: TBM850
PC-24 landing on grass in Venice

[youtube]https://youtu.be/Y-oYdvXY3Mc[/youtube]

Also, a good PC-24 walkaround with an explanation of the features, including the wide and low pressure nose wheel/tire with a flange to deflect debris on contaminated surfaces

[youtube]https://youtu.be/K4L0i4hcCjs[/youtube]


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