Hi Robbie,
I am 7 months into partnership in a 1976 421C model (straight leg). We chose this model for the advantages of the C but improved useful load over the trailing link and lower cost to buy. We have an amazing 2450 lbs useful. You asked for some performance numbers:
100lbs under gross at std temp: at 21000ft 65% power= 212kt and 39gph 70%=220 and 41.5gph. This was from our most recent trip so I remember exact parameters, but it usually makes about book speeds near gross wt. Only speed mod we have are speed caps.

Our hourly cost are about $550 inclusive of everything and being our first year, we have had a LOT of catch up maintenance and done a bunch of upgrades. As many have said before, this plane is amazing IF you have readily available maintenance. It only works for us because one of our partners is an AI and loves working on the plane. If we didn't have him it would be really rough. However, the person who eventually buys this plane will have a zero excuses plane as we maintain it with an open checkbook and it's on pace for 300-400 hours this year.

PM me if you want to discuss our experiences any further.
Guy

Call Christian Pancake at TAS and have him talk you through the 421C market. That, and listen to Jerry & Guy

-J

I flew a 412 for a coal company. Never paid the bills on it. In my opinion I found it easier to fly than the Baron. It is as quiet as people claim and the cabin is huge. I really don't know if there is any other airplane in its class that has a cabin that is any more passenger friendly or comfortable. Panel is wide and well laid out. Potty in the back and bar with a plug in coffee pot is very nice. I remember 220 TAS at 18K. I doubt a turbine will be cheaper to operate especially for short trips where you cant justify the flight levels.

If money was no object I would own one.

Great choice to move from a 414 to a 421C, I had 23 years in a C-320, then a couple years in a 414 and some time in a 414AW, as everyone says a well equipped 421C is an awesome aircraft for all the reasons everyone says, I wanted to move up from a 414 to a 421 for the known ice, upgraded avionics, fire extinguishers and factory A/C, if speed is what you like then this is the bird to get, don't buy it if your on a budget as repairs can be expensive but when all the systems are working it's great, I take my 421C into weather (safely) confident it will perform the mission as required knowing you have a 14,000 single engine service ceiling on a standard day at full gross, it's very happy at FL220 which is where I fly on long trips, just be sure you get one with a great Panel, Garmin G600 and a couple GTN-750's with GWX radar is what i have and it's everything you could want!

Unless the Jeff's have verified it; I'm not buying it.

The 421C has been a very active market. They are a fantastic airplane if well maintained, if you find a bargain airplane with deferred maintenance if you get it for free you still may loose your shirt.

Understand that if Cessna produced one of these today it would be a 2.5-3 M airplane. With that understood an owner will be maintaining a 45 year old 3 million dollar piece of equipment.

Some problem areas we have seen recently:

Cabin door crack at inner frame near aft hinge, this is most prominent on doors with snubbers when load is put on door before door is fully down. We have been unable to fined salvage doors that are not cracked and when located there is a good chance it will not match airframe as they are trimmed to fit on assembly. Cessna allows no repairs in this area, we recently purchased a frame for a 425 at a cost of $7800 and it is about a 60-70 hour task to replace this frame. We have seen a few doors patched in this area and signed off by shops referencing FAA AC43.13 as a repair guide. This is not a legal repair as the first page of AC4313 states it does not apply to pressurized structures. You would need a DER sign off for any repair to this structure if not replacing frame with original parts. At full pressure differential there is a huge load on this door. We are working with the FAA for a repair scheme on this part.

We have also seen some corrosion issues on the bonded wing skins, there are repairs allowed but they can be complex and may be more expensive than replacing the entire bonded skin. We have seen most issues on lower forward wing panel at quick drain and aft of exhaust stack. That wing panel goes from just outboard of engine nacelle to tip.

Recently had a late model 421C that had an air-conditioning duct wire that had one of its re-enforcing wires pop through duct and was laying against the aft spar carry through under cabin floor, the dissimilar corrosion progressed into the aft spar web and made for a very complex repair.

We have seen the angle at the junction of the top wing skin where it joins the fuselage cracked on nearly every aircraft seen, Cessna has a repair for these but there are some locations that you have no access to complete the repair.

Exhaust AD can be a big ticket item when you hit time limit.

Engine mount beams and aft saddle are also areas to keep an eye on.

New AD on some TCM cylinders hits a fair number of aircraft.

Windshields can be a pricey item, crazing common on copilots panel, pilots WS less prone with outer glass panel on heated WS. Instrument panel needs to be gutted to access hardware and often fairing panels need to be replaced all very labor intensive.

When these airplanes are in good condition they are fantastic but you must stay on top of maintenance.

I had that door repair done on my 425. All in the cost was about $8000 (done by WestStar). The door frame was readily available from Cessna, at least 5 years ago. No DER required. It was done on a minor.

That price seems correct for five years ago, we are seeing over 100% price increases year over year from Textron. 60 days ago we purchased the last original frame P/N from Textron for something north of $6K, it’s replacement was $1K more and they only had one of those.

Doing this as a minor repair or referring to AC 4313 is questionable on pressurized structures. I did speak to West Star, Ying Ling, Signature Technicare Fresno, Tom,s Aircraft (under new ownership) Beagles Aiircraft, Williams Airmotive and Air Impressions. Many of these companies have performed patch repairs in the past but none would do anything other than full frame replacement currently.

Feel lucky yours was done when it was.

There are DER’s that will work on repair schemes for these but with their fees added it is still a spendy repair. Textron engineering will not approve anything short of frame replacement at this time. The did allude to knowing of door failures in this area.

I would venture a guess is that much of the fleet of 400 series aircraft out there have undiscovered cracks in this area or will have. 60 days ago we found 11 doors in salvage yards when inspected all where cracked, one repaired but sign off reference AC4313, not appropriate.

The funny thing is WestStar only wanted to cut out a little section of the frame where it was cracked even though we bought the whole door frame. I was like no way, we paid for the whole frame! I made them do the lower half of the door.

Talk about questionable repairs, this is what the door looked like before the repair. WestStar flagged it during the pre buy. The seller was trying to tell us it was fine. There's like 4300 lbs of force just on the lower part of the door...

In my search for repair schemes on the 400 series doors, I had made contact with Ben White of Aero Flite Aerospace in Colorado. Ben is an FAA DER and has tons of Cessna 400 series background as he worked for Cessna engineering for years during the production of these aircraft. Ben can design a repair for the door issues and provide paper work to return this repair to service.

I contacted Ben on another issue and received my PHD on the subject from him. We flew out of state to inspect a 425 Conquest for a customer. Lovely airplane but had and issue with severe wrinkling on the left stub wing between the fuselage and engine nacelle.
We have seen light wrinkles in this area on several Conquests but nothing this advanced.
Ben noted this was and issue Cessna had seen after going to the trailing link gear on the 421C. The area between the stub wing and outer wing panel had on earlier aircraft been covered with a light fairing screwed in place. The trailing link gear moved forces aft and was torqueing this structure. Cessna added a heavy plate band to join these two structures that was riveted in place. This worked well on the 421. On the Conquest the higher gross weight exacerbated this problem along with much narrower engine nacelles that also removed some rigidity in this area. It is more likely to effect the left wing but both are prone to this. Ben does have a repair for this to reduce wrinkling in that area.
We did walk away from the out of state airplane.

Ben is certainly a go to guy for structural issues on the 400 series aircraft. We work regularly with Textron Structures group and they have been very good to work with but there are some areas where Ben at Aero Flite Aerospace may have more flexibility on repairs than Textron and Ben has native knowledge that some of the newbies at Textron do not as many of the engineering group that was involved in these early aircraft have long retired from Cessna/Textron.

I've worked with Ben on a couple repairs for my 425. He is indeed the guy.

I have a wrinkle in the L stub wing too but not as bad as the one in your pics. Interestingly, I came across this letter in the records for my a/c. Unless someone tells me there's an impending structural failure I'm not going to go tearing the wing apart.

Thread Drift Alert:

Can someone lookup the required take off distance for a 421C at 9000ft density alt?

If it won't make it at gross, what weight will it?

I'm in Crested Butte Colorado this week vacationing next to the airpark and can't help but be curious.

the POH shows at gross weight

3370 ground roll at 68 degrees F
4710 ground roll to clear 50 foot obstacel
-------------------------------------
at 86 degrees the ground roll is
3720 and 5910

for safety sake I usually add 50% to these figures

Jerry