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 Post subject: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 01:24 
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Location: Plymouth, Ma
Aircraft: G-280, GVII
[b]*** hi all, should have started with this... I'm only looking to compare a 414A to a 421C***
[b]
I have a lot of time in the 414.... i need someone with insight into the 421C...

I don't want a turbo prop.... I don't want a single engine airplane...... I don't want a single engine turbo prop they gets two strikes in my book....


I see the 421 to be a lot like a duke.... that is to say everyone that has never flown one knows just how horrible they are..... but the guys who have flown them love them...

Yes, I know it has geared engine.... Again, the few people that I have talked to that have really flown them love them.

My mission, 2-7 people less than 200 miles a couple times a monthin the summer sometimes less than 50 miles to go get breakfast, 1200 miles in the winter at least once a month...

Yes, i know I will need a fuel stop, and three of the people are kids... not a lot of bags...

Have you flown the 421C, What are real world cruise number at 65 percent....? Fuel flows?

Where, (what altitude,) did you flight plan for a 600 nm leg... low 20s? again, the 414a i used to fly was pretty happy in the low 20s on a longer trip...

Is it really as quiet as they claim?

Best mods? I used to fly a 414a with the strakes and I really think I NEED those... Winglets meh.... plus if i get a plane with trailing link they're a no go anyway...

I think I want an 80s or later plane, is it worth it?
I do not want a no hydraulic gear plane...

Thanks in advance

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Last edited on 23 Jan 2021, 14:38, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 09:55 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Company: FractionalLaw.com
Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
From a 2014 post:
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=89741&p=1126924&hilit=421#p1126924

I am a little late to this 421 love fest.

I have owned my 421C for almost 10 years and 1100 hours. The engines were mid-time when I bought the plane. I ran them over TBO by 120 and 250 hours; neither side had a cylinder removed during their entire runs. I probably could have run them over TBO longer, but I wanted to handle it as a scheduled event to coordinate with several other projects. I installed two factory new engines.

The geared engines are great: smooth, quiet, and reliable - as long as you look after the starter adapters and dampener.

My airplane is heavy - partly due to the trailing link gear: 5330 empty and 7579 MTOW (VGs) gives me a useful load of 2249.

I have Keith/JB Air. This is electrically powered, so can be run using a GPU prior to engine start. This is a phenomenal luxury on summer trips in the south. Since I don't have factory air, I have two wing locker tanks for 262 gallons usable.

The downside is that I find it takes extensive owner involvement to manage the maintenance. Even though I have used TAS Aviation for every annual, these planes are so complicated that you really just can't turn it over to a shop and expect to have the right maintenance done in the right manner. There are a lot of systems to know and manage.

The 421 is more difficult to fly than a King Air 200 and Citation Ultra (the only turbine planes I have flown). I didn't worry too much about engine failures in the KA 200, and didn't worry at all in the Ultra, but the 421 simply doesn't have the single-engine performance of a turbine.

When someone asks whether I think they should buy a 421, my stock answer is that if you have enough money to buy and operate a 421, you probably don't have enough time to manage it; and if you have enough time for a 421, you probably don't have enough money. And I am not picking on the 421. I am sure the same could be said about the P-Baron, Duke, etc. The harsh economic reality is that these complicated piston twins have become a niche for people who enjoy them despite their drawbacks. The smart money has transitioned to single-engine turboprops. A TBM is not that much more expensive in the big picture - and is probably a much smarter option if someone can afford that.

That said, if I switched to a TBM, my family would really miss the nose baggage compartment and the toilet.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 10:01 
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Joined: 06/28/11
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Location: Based ABE, Allentown, PA
Aircraft: King Air 350
And another 2014 post:
viewtopic.php?f=49&t=99763&p=1286925&hilit=421#p1286925

Steve,

I spent a few days (working with my local shop) this year setting up a test rig to confirm that my new oil pressure transducer was not accurate. Then many more days to convince the manufacturer that its transducers were defective.

I spent a few days on a NLG actuator R&R. We changed the wiring to the actuator so that all the splices and service loop are under the nose baggage area rather than in the wheel well.

I spent 6 days last year on the fuel tank float valve AD. The test box that we rented was defective, so we then had to perform the invasive test. The valves passed the test when wetted (which is approved in the AD), but the rubber seals were as hard as ceramic. I made the decision to replace all of the float valves.

I spend a week or two each year working on the annual inspection.

It took two years of troubleshooting to find the cause of high compressor discharge temp on one engine.

Every oil change involves lots of chafe patrol.

Boots need to be wiped of bugs and treated on a regular basis. Exhaust stains aft of the exhaust stack and oil streaks need to be cleaned on a regular basis: both to avoid corrosion and to keep the plane clean so that it is apparent when something goes wrong.

Are most 414s/421s airworthy without this level of owner involvement? Probably, but I know that my airplane would not be what it is without my micro-management. And my systems knowledge would not be what it is were it not for my involvement.

Pressurized piston twins are about the most complicated/delicate thing flying. Yes, a King Air and a Mustang are more complicated, but the complicated turbine equipment is built to a higher standard since there is more performance margin that allows for components to be heavier, the people working on them are generally operating at a higher standard, and the maintenance manual is mandatory (for twins anyway). Pressurized piston twins are thousands of compromises in formation. I see it as a whole different world than a normally-aspirated piston twin.

It doesn't take many failures among those thousands of compromises to severely impair the safety of the aircraft. On one engine, my 375 hp needs to keep 7,579 lbs of airplane flying. That's over 20 pounds per HP. Look at all the threads on flying a Bonanza at 4,000 gross. If the Bonanza has 300 HP, it would need to weigh 6,000 pounds to be in the neighborhood of the performance of a heavy pressurized piston twin on one engine - and the Bonanza has the advantage of centerline thrust. Imagine flying a 3,000# Bonanza and at rotation engine power is suddenly reduced to 50%. A 3,000# Bonanza at 50% is in the ballpark for a pressurized piston twin on one engine.

The 4,000# Bonanza threads mention that the plane is OK once it gets to 120 KIAS. On my 421C, rotation speed is 95 knots; the accelerate go/stop tables are based upon an engine failure at 100 kts. Envision an engine failure at 105 kts: the pilot may need to bring up the gear, feather, fly the obstacle speed of 105 kts, and then accelerate to blue line of 111 kts. After the airplane is cleaned up, it is akin to flying (I know there are differences in wing loading) a Bonanza at 6,000# with asymmetric thrust.

The single-engine performance is why I spend so much time on maintenance. It is why I ensure that my engines make redline MP and RPM even when hot. There is no chance of having book single-engine performance if the engine is not making rated power. Almost everyone knows that MP is high with cold oil. RPM is likewise high when cold. I do not know whether the speeder spring has higher tension when cold or what the cause is, but McCauley Propellor has confirmed the existence of the effect of temperature. Turning on prop synch increases the max rpm. If a prop governor is set to make redline on a hot day, it will overspeed (probably beyond Continental's 2% allowance) on a cold day with prop synch on. Believe me, when I dived into 421 ownership, I never envisioned or desired that I would be pulled into this morass of details. But I don't like to give away safety margin, especially given how little performance margin there is on one engine.

Fortunately, for as old these planes are with systems that are not over-built, mechanical failures are less important than pilot error. Pressurized piston twins pilots undoubtedly have a higher fatal accident rate due to mechanical failure, but the bulk of the accidents are the same cause as accidents in turbines: pilot error. I try not to let the engine failure bogey distract from the real risk: the person I see in the mirror.

I agree with Robert that a Meridian or a TBM does not have the cabin and baggage space of a 414A/421C. There is a price increase to move to the turbine world (though some MU-2 owners say that the delta can be miniscule), but the spread is decreasing as piston operating costs go up. The hidden cost for piston twins is the owners' time. The management burden is big.

This is the advice I give when someone asks me about buying a 421. The response applies to all pressurized piston twins: If you have enough money to own and operate a 421, you probably don't have enough time to manage it. And if you have enough time to manage a 421, you probably don't have enough money. I don't mean to be flip or to insult anyone, but it rings true.

I don't want to bump my aviation budget by 50% or more to go to the turbine world, and the time devoted to my 421 brings me some pleasure as a hands-on guy, so the 421 is a good fit for me. But the impractical realities of these planes should not be ignored. For someone looking for practical transportation rather than being an airport bum who is immersed in the flying experience, I would send him to a normally aspirated twin or to a turbine.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 11:46 
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Joined: 12/03/14
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Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
I don't want to bump my aviation budget by 50% or more to go to the turbine world

I didn't, either, so I bought a turbine I could fly for the same price per mile as a 421.

I did very nearly buy a 421. I think it is the best traveling airplane burning Avgas. The geared engines are good and reliable if properly cared for and used. A straight leg 421C would be my preferred model. The 421 is way better than a 58P, Duke, and P-Navajo, IMO.

In the end, the reliability and higher speed of a turbine make it an entirely different class of airplane and if you can do that for the same price per mile as piston, it is a no brainer.

Some numbers:

GTSIO520L (early 421C):
Overhaul $47/hour
Mid term top $10/hour
Exhaust $10/hour
Oil changes $7/hour
Plugs, mags $3/hour
Fuel $100/hour (~$4.50/gal 100LL)

Total: $177/hour/engine
At 200 knots $1.77/mile/both

TPE331-10 (MU-2M):
Overhaul $45/hour
Hot section $7/hour
Exhaust $0/hour
Oil changes, samples $2/hour
Nozzles $2/hour
Fuel $140/hour (~$3.30/gal Jet-A)

Total: $196/hour/engine
At 300 knots $1.31/mile/both

Propulsion costs 25% less per mile for the turbine. The turbine will also endure less airframe hours per mile which reduces maintenance costs. A King Air won't compare as favorably as the TPE331 twins.

The engine maintenance is a dream for turbine. I've flown my MU2 1600 hours and done just one oil change. The inspections take about 1 hour labor per engine, there's nothing to do except a general visual look over. The only routine things that cost anything are oil samples and nozzle cleaning, and that's under $5/hour. Nothing goes wrong. Easy to manage, not fiddling with mixtures and watching about 20 parameters per engine.

If an engine quits, which will happen far less often in the turbine, you have the power to climb. No fuel fed cabin heater to potentially cause CO poison. Turbine planes are simply safer all around.

No worry about 100LL future, or if you can buy fuel if you travel internationally.

At the time, I worried a lot about whether going turbine was the right choice. I can now it absolutely was the right choice.

If you have the money to buy it, the best turboprop out there is a 441. Smooth, fast, long range, etc. It is a turbine 421 that goes 320 knots, 2000 nm, with a larger cabin. That will radically change your mission experience.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 12:24 
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Joined: 07/13/12
Posts: 176
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Location: Plymouth, Ma
Aircraft: G-280, GVII
Hi Guy,

Thanks for the great info....

Little about me, I have a great job the provides me a lot of time off or at least on call to hang out in the hangar making sure the airplane is well maintained.

I have an A&P and the friends with the knowledge to teach my what I don't know about maintaining the systems.... And when that fails there is also a shop on my home field and the next field over that both have really great mechanics that really understand these airplanes.

I under stand how great the turbo prop can be.... but it makes the airplane almost cost prohibitive to go for a joy ride or a breakfast flight to Nantucket or the Vineyard.

Full disclosure, My first turbo prop had a Pt-6, my first type was in a 1900, if i was going the turbine route It would be a king air.... well because im a beech guy ... If I could find a model 88 queen air I would go that route.... or did they ever turbo charge the Excalibur queen airs.... with the pressurized cabin.... that would be amazing...

I have never been a garett fan, sorry just personal preference....

I know the MU-2 is fast, but i was never a fan, partially because im a pt-6 guy, but I just don't have it in me to go to training a third time every year... I already go twice...

Yes, I know insurance will require training in the 421, I think the underwriter i have been talking to will allow every other year, based off my current level of training, and I have found a couple of companies that will come to you...

Thanks again for the great info,

with the 262 gallon was is the real IFR range?
what is the range with the basic fuel?

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 12:27 
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Username Protected wrote:
Yes, I know it has geared engine.... Again, the few people that I have talked to that have really flown them love them.

Not a 421 guy, but curious if there is an STC to change the geared engines?


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 12:58 
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Sure i think there are a couple of turbo props options...

why would you want to.... the cost of the STC would make me go by a citation Ultra

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 13:13 
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If you can afford a 425 (Conquest I) that might be the best answer for you. It’s the true 421C turbine (same airframe), but of course with the PT6 engine. The 441 (Conquest II) is based on the 404, with Garrett engines.

A casual look at the market it takes a few hundred thousand more to buy a 441 as compared to the 425.

If you can jump over the hurdle of purchase price, I think you’ll find the turboprop both more affordable to run and a lot more predictable. And on top of that you get better performance in almost every way (excepting perhaps range, but in practice that’s probably a wash)

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 13:34 
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Location: Plymouth, Ma
Aircraft: G-280, GVII
Thanks for the advice,

But again, if I was going to buy a turbo prop it would be a king airs... call it brand loyalty... plus iIhave more time in king airs than any other family of aircraft....

my search is for either a 414A or a 421C...

I have lots of 414A time, not so much on the 421C

I'm trying to find out what I don't know about the 421C

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 13:42 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
Username Protected wrote:
If you can afford a 425 (Conquest I) that might be the best answer for you. It’s the true 421C turbine (same airframe), but of course with the PT6 engine. The 441 (Conquest II) is based on the 404, with Garrett engines.

A casual look at the market it takes a few hundred thousand more to buy a 441 as compared to the 425.


If you can afford a 425, you can afford a 441. You will more than make up any difference in payment cost in fuel savings...

The problem is, they built less than 400 441's, and finding a good one is becoming harder and harder. When I bought one for a customer to upgrade from a 421C, we bought the 13th 441 that I physically looked at. Like every other twin-engine airplane on the market, there are a few good ones and a bunch of junk...


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 13:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
If you can afford a 425, you can afford a 441. You will more than make up any difference in payment cost in fuel savings...


That kind of logic always makes me smile. It’s simply not true. Or it’s only true if you fly a certain number of hours.

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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 13:52 
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I have owned a 1980 421C for 16 years and flown it 2,200 hours. I ran the first set of engines out to TBO and 350 hours ago replaced everything firewall forward with new engines, exhaust ETC.

There is nothing better than two well maintained engines, a good and knowledge shop and a involved owner who understands the service details. If you can accomplish all three the 421C is a great plane.

If you are only flying 100 hours a year the 421C will cost less in “total annual dollars” spent.You have to fly a turbine 2.5 times more hours to get “the per mile cost” down to a 421C. The Turbine will cost a lot more in total dollars spent per year.

For short trips the conquest 425 will be very expensive compared to a 421C. If most of your flying is shorter trips with an occasional 1200 mile trip the 421C is great. For short trips there is no reason to go above 15,000 unless you have a big tailwind or WX. For longer trips the low 20’s are great.

My wife and kids loved the 421C because it was quite, lots of room and had a potty plus lots of baggage space.

There is lots of good and accurate information on the Twin Cessna Flyer web site.
Jerry


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 14:33 
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It's a big pretty white plane with red stripes, curtains in the windows and wheels and it looks like a big Tylenol


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 15:45 
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Regarding 7 people. Look carefully at CG. It's really hard to put anyone other than a child in that way back, although if it's really a 200 mile leg you can ballast the nose

As for an STC to de-gear the 421 ... no, there's not a non-geared opposed piston engine that makes 375hp. I mean I guess you could put radials on there. There were some turbine conversions.


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 Post subject: Re: What do you know about the Cessna 421C
PostPosted: 23 Jan 2021, 16:20 
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There is a 421C without geared engines. It’s called a 414A.

Robert T


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