BeechTalk - BT - New Mooney Owners Website

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 12:40

https://www.mooney.com/

"OWN IT" headline but nothing to own. No aircraft shown or marketed. No Ovation or Acclaim Ultras. No specs. Lots of pictures of The Team. T-shirts and mugs for sale in the Speedshop. Vague talk about next generation aircraft buried in the Engineering and Design section. Mention of "Ultra II" as last item in "Future Vision" banner. It looks like they are creating a company "Online Forum" blog to compete with Mooneyspace and MAPA.

This sounds so much like Commander Aircraft (before its second or third bankruptcy). Does anyone have any insight regarding what is going on there? Does anyone think these guys have any hope of making it?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 13:32

No and no. But the BS, errr I mean PR department, seems to be up to speed.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 15:23

Username Protected wrote:

Does anyone have any insight regarding what is going on there? Does anyone think these guys have any hope of making it?

No. But the message from the CEO at least acknowledged it....

Blog post

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 15:48

If you lose money on every plane you sell, maybe it’s best to not sell any?

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 16:32

Not a bad way to generate some interest in Mooneys by the factory.

I like the idea that you have to use your name and not a pseudonym on their forums so hopefully it'll have an effect of some credibility like it does here.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 16:52

The new owners are producing parts for the existing fleet. They have already helped some existing owners in a path to make updates to their G1000’s with more in the future, which had been orphaned. Continuing the manufacture of parts for others which also makes $. Working on improvements to the line and a path forward for the company. Is this even possible? Could there be a GW increase for long bodies in the works? Patience is warranted, I like that they aren’t throwing money at a losing business plan like the M10. It takes time and money to develop the tech, people and money to make a dent in GA. Personally happy they are supporting the fleet.

No new planes being manufactured but there were a few existing they have/had been completing.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 20 Dec 2020, 18:42

I believe the airplanes have some 3-4,000 hours of labor in them. Also, I doubt CMI and Garmin and the other parts vendors have a ready stock of stuff on hand to make Mooney’s. New owners, new credit arrangements (or not) with vendors. All this stuff takes time.

Selling something you don’t have is a good way to get your legs broken.
-Dan

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Dec 2020, 03:11

Username Protected wrote:

Also, I doubt CMI and Garmin and the other parts vendors have a ready stock of stuff on hand to make Mooney’s. New owners, new credit arrangements (or not) with vendors.

Maybe there is another reason. The Ovation Ultra uses the same CMI 310 HP IO-550-N as does the Cirrus SR22. So the engine is on hand at CMI all the time....but maybe CMI chooses to sell only to those that have a history of paying their bills on time.

https://dailytimes.com/promotions/artic ... ty%20taxes. "Mooney catches up on back taxes"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Dec 2020, 16:48

Username Protected wrote:

Also, I doubt CMI and Garmin and the other parts vendors have a ready stock of stuff on hand to make Mooney’s. New owners, new credit arrangements (or not) with vendors.

Maybe there is another reason. The Ovation Ultra uses the same CMI 310 HP IO-550-N as does the Cirrus SR22. So the engine is on hand at CMI all the time....but maybe CMI chooses to sell only to those that have a history of paying their bills on time.

https://dailytimes.com/promotions/artic ... ty%20taxes. "Mooney catches up on back taxes"

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Dec 2020, 22:46

I heard that the new owners are looking to go big-maybe a Turbine in development.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 21 Dec 2020, 22:57

What would preclude them from switching back over to a Lycoming? They make some nice, reliable, engines and jugs.

While there used to be some reliable and lower cost turbine models out there, the acquisitions by larger companies have since taken many of the inexpensive overseas options off the low-cost ledger.

Honestly, I really can't see paying that much $$ for a turbine aircraft without pressurization given the cost is already in the Cirrus price range. Maybe it's time for a turbodiesel and something that can use Jet-A. The turboprop engine fuel flow doesn't exactly shine down low.

What does an RR300 Turboshaft engine, with all the accessories, go for nowadays?
What is the cost of a P&W PT6A-35 or PT6A-21 with accessories?
They have been successful on the JetProp and Royal Turbine Duke.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Dec 2020, 01:13

Username Protected wrote:

I heard that the new owners are looking to go big-maybe a Turbine in development.

Again

That is what the M in TBM stands for.... They need a higher gross weight and a wider cabin, along with a parachute to even have the chance to compete.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Dec 2020, 02:45

Username Protected wrote:

I heard that the new owners are looking to go big-maybe a Turbine in development.

Again

That is what the M in TBM stands for.... They need a higher gross weight and a wider cabin, along with a parachute to even have the chance to compete.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Dec 2020, 09:30

As long as one of those two people up front is a wife, buyers will not jump at a piston single without a chute. The market has spoken, actually shouted, that pretty clearly.

They either need to build a better Cirrus, or build something for a different mission that doesn’t compete with cirrus. Until there is a major part 23 rewrite, it may be more profitable to simply support the existing fleet with parts and upgrades.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 22 Dec 2020, 12:57

Username Protected wrote:

I think to differentiate themselves they should not try to build a better Cirrus, they will lose. Gross weight needs to be improved to even start a conversation, which is probably a question of new or beefed up landing gear.

I think the answer is a diesel with autothrottles and autoland and skip the weight and cost of a chute. They would beat the Cirrus in range, efficiency, speed, fun to fly (without pressing AP), and would only need to match on price to be a winner. Finding an engine and getting Garmin to control it is a different matter, but it would leapfrog Cirrus if it could be done for under 7 figures. I think wives would be sold on the magic autoland button with a modern (reliable) engine.

Many SR22s are flown with one or two up front, maybe kids in the back. Those buyers would jump at an Acclaim Super Ultra or whatever. The cabin is not that narrow, it’s just short in height, sort of the reverse of a Bo. They do need to lower the panel height and improve the view. The ultra feels a little claustrophobic as is.

Continental CD 300 would require a redesign of everything forward of the firewall, but uses modern (car) engine technologies. Not sure what the reliability of that engine is or if anyone is using it outside of the experimental world.

A diesel is one thing, I fly a diesel airplane, it's great, but I don't see the need for autothrottles. These airplanes are not being flown in the type of environment where auto-throttles will add a significant margin of safety. The airplane needs an autothrottle for autoland to function.

My wife isn't buying autoland... here is her hierarchy and I'm pretty sure her views match the market.

1. Parachute Airplane
2. Twin-Engine and or Turbine
3. Drive
4. Piston-Single

We ended up in a Baron and she's starting to like it more than the Cirrus because it holds so much more stuff.

The Mooney is tight, you can pull out the tape measure all you want but it's "room" is distributed in all the wrong places. The widest part of the fuselage needs to be from the elbows to the shoulders when a person is seated. The Mooney's widest part is the hips and tapers too quickly from there and makes you feel confined.

I don't know if Mooney will be able to figure it out in this market. If they decided to do a redesign with a new diesel, but if it doesn't have a parachute, it's not going anywhere.

New Mooney Owners Website - NO/ZERO Aircraft Shown/Marketed