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29 Mar 2024, 08:23 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2020, 22:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
My experience this summer was buying one aircraft and selling another.

I bought my 182E across the country clear on the other coast. My buyer for my 172G was in Ontario. I am in Nova Scotia.

Now I bought and sold both in Canada so the market is different here. Less planes less pilots, less money. My greatest assets i think were no brokers and both the seller and the buyer were solid honest people who were easy to deal with. Having the border closed to US was a help in my purchase and a bit of a hindrance in my sale. The us dollar being close to 35% higher is two edged. Competing with us buyers is hard but selling in USD is pretty sweet.

First my purchase. I reached out to the owner through a Facebook post that my son found for us. I contacted him immediately and requested some information and or logs to check it out. He had a huge file of pdf’s that he sent me the next day. I found out it was out of annual and made the offer within 24 hours to pay for the annual as a deposit and prepurchase agreement. It was a way to find out that it was airworthy and i would have had to be done to get it home anyway. The owner agreed and i started to look for flights out. It was a bit unconventional as the seller decided that he didn’t require a cash deposit to hold it. We ended up taking the cost of the annual off the asking price

I made arrangements to fly out, inspect, and participate in the annual. We used a local shop to him and i put my trust in the shop’s reputation and honesty. I have to say i acted quicker than i would have in any other time. The plane was/is better than i expected for the price we agreed on. If it wouldn’t have worked out i would have been out the cost of a plane ticket and maybe the annual. But i think that the owner would have made me whole on the expense as he is just that good of a fellow. I ended up flying it back across Canada with my 17 year old son and his buddy. These two were picked for the Air Cadet PPL scholarship but it was canceled due to covid. They’ll at least have that memory to remember the summer of loss. The hardest thing about the purchase was begging the time off work to cover the trip and our mandatory 2 week quarantine for travel outside our provincial borders. I think being decisive, honest, and willing to make the jump worked in my favor.

My sale of my 172 was easy and smooth. I had it advertised online on controller and Barnstormers. Also it was on our national free buy and sell website Kijiji which is where it was sold from. The purchaser was motivated and eager. Same thing was done. I had an extensive google photos folder with many photos and the PDF’s of the logs. He offered me a deposit to have it inspected locally. I flew the plane there to be inspected for him. It passed, we agreed on a price and i had it delivered to him in Ontario by two commercial pilot/instructors i know who are starting an aviation business. I held my 172 until i had my 182 home and tied down so I wouldn’t be planeless if my purchase fell through. I did the transaction by phone while camping with my two sons sitting around a campfire.

It was an easy process to do both transactions, quick and no real hassles. I had lots of interest in mine in both Canada and the US both before and after the deposit. I even had someone offer me more than asking price after taking the deposit, if i would sell it to them. I imagine my seller of the 182 did as well as the market is tight for product now. I would never not abide by an agreement nor could i imagine the seller would have either. Now i understand that the Bonanza is a larger purchase than a 172/182 with more to consider but my buy and sell worked out excellently.


One of the Best Stories I've Read :clap: :bow: :D Thank You for Posting that Bruce.......and Merry Christmas :D

Sincerely Sidney Wakeham

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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2020, 14:45 
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Username Protected wrote:
My main point is that it's not all that hard to figure out how to buy an airplane. It's mostly common sense and elbow grease.



You would think, but people $&%# it up every...single...day.



It is true that it's not hard to figure it out, but it's the unknowns that get you. I learn something new about buying airplanes on a regular basis... even though it's all I do.

I get accused of promoting myself, but if you look at what I have posted over the last five years, what I am really promoting is aircraft buyers doing whatever they need to do to keep from getting screwed. In some cases that means carry on the way you always have, in other cases that means hire someone. There's no one size fits all solution.

My goal is to share knowledge, my business is to buy airplanes, I use the knowledge in my business, but that is not the product. The product is finding off market airplanes and doing all of the work to understand the market and get an airplane bought right, inspected right and put into operation.

The finding airplanes part is almost impossible if you don't have the tools and contacts. The second part is people (time) and process (knowledge). Without the tools, knowledge and time to do it right, many choose to hire someone else. I can work on my own vehicles, I even like it... I have the tools and the knowledge... but I don't have the time.

No matter what, acquire the knowledge, this forum is full of knowledge, I am a phone call away. I won't charge you a dime for the guidance and you have no reason to feel guilty about that, the goal is to eliminate as many of the unknowns as possible. I've met very few aircraft buyers that were poor decision makers, but you have to have good information to make good decisions.
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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 16 Dec 2020, 21:05 
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Joined: 02/09/09
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Location: Owosso, MI (KRNP)
Aircraft: 1969 Bonanza V35A
With smaller airplanes, it seems that many of the problems come from airplanes that just fell into someone's lap and the deal was done with a check and a handshake. It isn't until years later that a more educated buyer or broker is involved in a sale that the monumental problems start to show up.

Of course, the "opposite" can occur also where the buyer is so "over researched" (not necessarily accurately either) that buying the airplane becomes a lesson in micromanagement of every single task to the point that the sale falls apart.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2020, 09:14 
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Not a Bonanza but it still applies. I wrote this on Vans Air Force after selling my absolutely beautiful RV-7 back to the original builder/owner.

Ok, our beautiful RV-7 was almost immediately sold back to it’s original builder who flew it 1800 nm back home. It was a near perfect airplane that was beautifully built and updated to make it even better. I’m glad it worked out this way. During the few days it was on Barnstormers, I answered a bunch of calls. Most were from great people that were truly interested. Thank you. There were others though that didn’t fit that description. If you are trying to find an RV (I’m looking for a RV-8 right now), you may want to think about how you approach the seller. The following are examples of what I found to be a real turn off as a seller:

1. You don’t introduce yourself
2. 1st question - “What’s your bottom dollar.” Why in the world would I bid against myself? If you are really interested, ask and I’ll send you all of the info you request. Then, if it meets your expectations, come visit. I published the asking price, the next move is yours if, after doing your due diligence, you want the airplane.
3. Select your buyer’s agents carefully. I’ve experienced, as a seller, a real pro that you guys all know. This time, I was contacted by another guy who warned me that he has been thrown out of people’s hangars and went into detail about the confrontations. I immediately decided I wasn’t going to work with him. His customer may have missed the airplane he’s been looking for.
4. It’s ok to come look, decide it’s not what you want and leave. Just try to respect the seller’s time and thank them for showing you yet another beautiful RV. You’ll learn something and maybe make a friend along the way.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 07:32 
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Robert, great points!!

People make deals with people they like!

I haven’t sold an airplane in fives years since starting JetAcq, but I did sell my really nice pickup recently... talk about a seller’s market. My phone blew up! Most of the calls / text were “would you take” and some were pretty aggressive. Why would I sell a used anything to a guy who shows he is difficult in the first interaction.

I actually sold it to a buyer who flips vehicles to car dealers, he paid less than what other’s would have paid, but he was nice and respectful, upfront and honest. He came and looked at the truck, wrote me a check and drove away.

It took me the next two days to get the other “buyers” to stop harassing me and I enjoyed telling many of them it was sold.

Lowballing doesn’t work in a buyer’s market, it sure doesn’t work in a seller’s market. Lowballing will only get you the airplane that no one else wants.

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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 08:10 
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Firstly I don’t think there is a sellers’ market in GA, perhaps pre 1973 OPEC crisis during the GA golden years.

Look at the demography of the owners and the fleet, and especially in bell weather non exotic types, the supply of decent examples is plentiful. Exotic types are for enthusiasts, stick to bell weather types.

A realistically priced aircraft with good log books will sell efficiently. I sold a 70 year old Super Cub to the first offer in hours of placing the advertisement, during this summer. Had over half a dozen offers, including above asking price. Note conditions: realistic price and good log books.

Unless you know the airplane locally, and then it will sell unadvertised, a complex aircraft like the BE33/35/36 deserves a pre buy. No point organising this unless the log books are good.

Now on this topic I feel the quality of some Beechcraft log books are very inferior to the quality of the type’s engineering and build! In a forty or even sixty year airframe the quality of maintenance as reflected in the log books is paramount.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 10:48 
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Joined: 01/23/13
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Location: Albany, NY
Aircraft: C-182RG, C-172, PA28
Robert, I think you just described the conditions of a seller's market.

In a buyer's market, even a plane that's priced right is going to take longer to sell and most of the offers will be below the asking price, even if it is priced right.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 11:34 
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Eric there is quite a few V35 languishing on the for sale sites. But you are correct for the well maintained candidate it seems quite a good market all things considered.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 12:18 
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Username Protected wrote:
Most of the calls / text were “would you take” and some were pretty aggressive. Why would I sell a used anything to a guy who shows he is difficult in the first interaction.


I've had that happen a few times as well, including some property that's not for sale. I mean, it's almost comical.

I just don't see how people expect that to work, but like roboscam calls and late night infomercials, it must, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Best,
Rich


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2021, 12:04 
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The end of the year was nuts! Deals that closed, some that didn’t, from talking to the folks at the title company and several of my friends who are aircraft brokers, closing airplanes in December was like a war zone.

Fortunately, we closed three deals in November and December, but had them done by the 18th, so we were good and actually enjoyed some rare downtime over the holidays.

The relevance to this thread is... what happens now?

Obviously, the rush to close by year end is over, but all indications are that things aren’t slowing down. The increasing Covid numbers continue to drive people away from the airlines. I’m typing this on a flight to Boise, I wish I wasn’t on, and had I not already had Covid, wouldn’t be on! Every seat full. I should have said, driving those who can afford private away from the airlines, everyone else is here!

I’ll keep you guys posted, but we are currently rewriting our aircraft purchase agreements to better protect our buyers in a seller’s market.

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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 09 Jan 2021, 20:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
The end of the year was nuts! Deals that closed, some that didn’t, from talking to the folks at the title company and several of my friends who are aircraft brokers, closing airplanes in December was like a war zone.

Fortunately, we closed three deals in November and December, but had them done by the 18th, so we were good and actually enjoyed some rare downtime over the holidays.

The relevance to this thread is... what happens now?

Obviously, the rush to close by year end is over, but all indications are that things aren’t slowing down. The increasing Covid numbers continue to drive people away from the airlines. I’m typing this on a flight to Boise, I wish I wasn’t on, and had I not already had Covid, wouldn’t be on! Every seat full. I should have said, driving those who can afford private away from the airlines, everyone else is here!

I’ll keep you guys posted, but we are currently rewriting our aircraft purchase agreements to better protect our buyers in a seller’s market.


You've been told what’s coming...a long dark winter. I expect more business to come your way.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2021, 05:35 
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I think finding a plane with the right things wrong with it is the best approach, and the approach I recently used


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2021, 10:46 
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Username Protected wrote:
The end of the year was nuts!
....
I’ll keep you guys posted, but we are currently rewriting our aircraft purchase agreements to better protect our buyers in a seller’s market.


This kinda implies that Sellers are evil. And because most Buyers are also Sellers (or eventually will be), how can one explain the bi-polar nature here?

Best,

Tom


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2021, 10:53 
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Just sold my cherokee. Posted on facebook, barnstormers and controller. Sold to a guy via controller. Within 2.5hs of hitting controller I had a guy wanting to put a deposit but I ended up selling it to a guy that was local.

Got a stupid amount of interest off facebook but most if was people asking “is it available”. Also got one or two stupid lowball offers.


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 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2021, 14:24 
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Username Protected wrote:
Just sold my cherokee. Posted on facebook, barnstormers and controller. Sold to a guy via controller. Within 2.5hs of hitting controller I had a guy wanting to put a deposit but I ended up selling it to a guy that was local.

Got a stupid amount of interest off facebook but most if was people asking “is it available”. Also got one or two stupid lowball offers.

In their defense, "Is it available" is pre-loaded by FB when you click on an ad, so it looks like a logical first step.


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