banner
banner

16 Jun 2021, 06:23 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 15:20 
Offline



 WWW  Profile

Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 4085
Post Likes: +4059
Company: Jet Acquisitions, LLC
Location: Nashville, TN 615-739-9091
I'm not sure the trend will continue into 2021 but we are currently in a strong seller's market for most popular turboprops and jets.

The process of buying an airplane has never been particularly easy and it has become less so in the last few months. After reading another thread where a gentleman expressed his dismay at having a Bonanza sold out from under him I thought it would be good to start a discussion and share tips and tricks we use to buy in the current market. I know this effects a wide variety of markets, but my experience is turbines, so some of my suggestions won't make sense if applied to piston purchases.

I'll start off by saying that "knowing" the market is more critical than ever. Understanding what to pay for a particular aircraft and the ability to move swiftly when a "deal" presents itself has never been more important.

_________________
Chip McClure
Jet Acquisitions
chip@jetacq.com

We have access to off-market turbine aircraft!


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 15:32 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 07/11/14
Posts: 812
Post Likes: +217
Location: 46U
Aircraft: C182
Username Protected wrote:
I'm not sure the trend will continue into 2021 but we are currently in a strong seller's market for most popular turboprops and jets.

The process of buying an airplane has never been particularly easy and it has become less so in the last few months. After reading another thread where a gentleman expressed his dismay at having a Bonanza sold out from under him I thought it would be good to start a discussion and share tips and tricks we use to buy in the current market. I know this effects a wide variety of markets, but my experience is turbines, so some of my suggestions won't make sense if applied to piston purchases.

I'll start off by saying that "knowing" the market is more critical than ever. Understanding what to pay for a particular aircraft and the ability to move swiftly when a "deal" presents itself has never been more important.


Chip,

Agree that “knowing” the market can lead to a better deal.

Why do you think that we are in a Sellers market?

I have been looking at the Piper Meridian market for the last 6 months or so. Approx. 60 of the 650 fleet on market. Average ask price steadily declining and now just under $1M. Avidyne/Garmin ratio about 10/1. Perhaps a special case? But what metrics indicate a Sellers market? Thanks

Best,

Tom


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 17:16 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 06/05/11
Posts: 337
Post Likes: +134
Location: Atlanta, GA
Aircraft: SR22, Baron 58
Two best options:

Attachment:
suitcase-of-cash.jpg


Attachment:
Bag of Cash.jpg




:D


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
Wayne

LinkedIn
instagram: waynecease


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 17:34 
Offline



 WWW  Profile

Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 4085
Post Likes: +4059
Company: Jet Acquisitions, LLC
Location: Nashville, TN 615-739-9091
Username Protected wrote:
I'm not sure the trend will continue into 2021 but we are currently in a strong seller's market for most popular turboprops and jets.

The process of buying an airplane has never been particularly easy and it has become less so in the last few months. After reading another thread where a gentleman expressed his dismay at having a Bonanza sold out from under him I thought it would be good to start a discussion and share tips and tricks we use to buy in the current market. I know this effects a wide variety of markets, but my experience is turbines, so some of my suggestions won't make sense if applied to piston purchases.

I'll start off by saying that "knowing" the market is more critical than ever. Understanding what to pay for a particular aircraft and the ability to move swiftly when a "deal" presents itself has never been more important.


Chip,

Agree that “knowing” the market can lead to a better deal.

Why do you think that we are in a Sellers market?

I have been looking at the Piper Meridian market for the last 6 months or so. Approx. 60 of the 650 fleet on market. Average ask price steadily declining and now just under $1M. Avidyne/Garmin ratio about 10/1. Perhaps a special case? But what metrics indicate a Sellers market? Thanks

Best,

Tom


Tom,

We haven't been in the Meridian market in a while, but I suspect it is a little slow compared to other models. I actually feel like the M600 has hurt the Meridian, it unintentionally showcases the former's weaknesses.

Obviously there really isn't a single market, but many small markets and some are way hotter than others. The term "seller's market" does refer more to the attitude of sellers than it does the actual market.

Overall, transactions are up and inventory is down. We are busier than we have ever been, and dealing with brokers is a pain because they all seem to be overwhelmed with business. The markets we are most active in, such as CJ3. Excel / XLS and Challenger 300's have hardly anything to choose from, and prices are firm and in some cases even rising. Even the Hawker market is hot right now and they were dead and have been dead. There are some bright spots / opportunities, we recently made really good buys on a 2013 King Air 350i and a 2006 Lear 45XR.

I'm not sure if it's people flying to avoid the airlines, the strong economy (for some) in spite of a pandemic or the fear of losing bonus depreciation... or maybe all three, but it's certainly harder to buy an airplane today than it was a year ago.
_________________
Chip McClure
Jet Acquisitions
chip@jetacq.com

We have access to off-market turbine aircraft!


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 18:11 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 12/16/07
Posts: 11731
Post Likes: +9119
Company: Real Estate development
Location: Addison -North Dallas(ADS), Texas
Aircraft: In between
Excellent time to use a good broker with relationships if you don't know the seller, and maybe still then.
I had the same issues trying to purchase my first Bonanza. Seller's market. I agreed to fly out and look at a plane to find it had been sold and the dealer didn't even apologize. Some fella had purchased it at list without a pre-buy. (By the way, I did see that fella complaining about problems with the plane shortly after and it was all someone else's fault according to him.)
Used a good local broker and he did the chasing. Found one after a couple tries that was generally what I wanted and gave the guy $500 handshake deposit. Went through fine.
Good brokers know many of the seller reps and where some of the good planes are. Sometimes as good as being on this board!

_________________
Dave Siciliano, ATP


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 18:35 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 2655
Post Likes: +1434
Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
How is the high-performance piston-single market these days?


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 18:54 
Offline



User avatar
 WWW  Profile

Joined: 06/28/09
Posts: 12068
Post Likes: +6218
Location: Walnut Creek, CA (KCCR)
Aircraft: 1962 Twin Bonanza
Username Protected wrote:
How is the high-performance piston-single market these days?


The Cirrus market is very strong for G3's and later. The 182 market for P model and later is downright crazy, with prices going up and up.. It took me 8 months to find a good 182 at what I considered a fair price but it was hardly perfect. Piston twins are still in the doldrums but not as bad as a few years ago.

_________________
http://calipilot.com
atp/cfii


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 20:14 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 06/09/09
Posts: 4240
Post Likes: +2845
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
C182P is a great airplane.


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 20:29 
Online


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 03/23/11
Posts: 9135
Post Likes: +2277
Location: Frederick, MD
Aircraft: V35A TC
How to buy an airplane in a seller's market? ......have your cash ready and know what you want. Then pull the trigger the moment you see it.

_________________
Views represented here are my own.....and do not in anyway reflect my employer's position.


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 20:43 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 1292
Post Likes: +1139
Location: Charlotte (EQY)
Aircraft: Avanti-Citabria
For piston airplanes more than say....bout....5-50 years old....

Find one you like that has been flown a bit recently....that you think is in mostly guud shape....

Then do sumpin krazE......BUY IT

You are going to SPEND money on it!

Hopefully only a few surprises besides the grin that does not go away when you line up fer takeoff each time.



Stop lookin and buy it!

_________________
I wanna go phastR.....and slowR


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 20:46 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 996
Post Likes: +1045
Location: Houston, TX KDWH
Aircraft: '81 Baron 58
I had cash, agreed to 99% of asking price, talking to a reputable broker in business for 50 years....for a 172M... ‘sorry, seller sold it to a local flying club... I’ll keep looking’. Uh...no, don’t bother.
The question is, for me, is there any contractual language that can practically enforce a remedy if Seller doesn’t perform on a piston transaction? Particularly after signature but before the buyer begins to spend or cause to be spent Buyers money (prebuy, for example). I can’t think of any...


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 21:26 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/11/10
Posts: 498
Post Likes: +179
Location: Lincoln Park, NJ
Aircraft: Bonanza - 1997 A36TN
Even if you have a signed contract you can lose the plane. Yes you could sue, but your damages would be minimal. At most you would be entitled to the difference in price between what you would have paid, and what you ended up paying for a similar airplane. The legal fees would be significantly more than your damages. That's why sellers can get away with it. You probably can't get specific performance because the plane's title has already been transferred. (I'm not an attorney, but when my wife went to law school and was studying, I learned a lot of this type of stuff)


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 21:32 
Offline


 Profile

Joined: 10/11/10
Posts: 498
Post Likes: +179
Location: Lincoln Park, NJ
Aircraft: Bonanza - 1997 A36TN
I agree about the Meridian. It's relatively short range is the real issue. You get a turboprop so you can go long and fast. The Meridian is fast enough but has limited range compared to the other SETPs. The M600 has an extra 600 miles of range (maybe that's why it's called the M600). If you could only put tip tanks on the Meridian it would be a game changer for that plane.


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 02 Dec 2020, 23:56 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 09/09/12
Posts: 1820
Post Likes: +286
Company: Benjamin Law Firm
Aircraft: M35, now A36TN
Funny- not so much range on meridian as weight. It won’t hold much with full fuel.

But then again tip tank bonanza tends to spoil expectations. I agree with Chip, the M600 points out what is missing in the 500.


Top

 Post subject: Re: How to buy an airplane in a seller's market.
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2020, 04:56 
Offline



User avatar
 Profile

Joined: 11/08/12
Posts: 11921
Post Likes: +4603
Location: Jackson, MS (KHKS)
Aircraft: 1959 Travel Air
The way you succeed in a seller's market is to accept risk.

Everything you read about how to buy an airplane involves a slow, laborious process that is fraught with risk and labor for the seller. First you want to review the logbooks that you ask the seller to scan, then you make an offer with 16 different ways for you to get out of the deal, and there's an escrow servive and a title search then you schedule a pre-buy 3 weeks out someplace 200 miles from the homebase (because you want an independent mechanic and someone with a reputation for knowing the airplane) then you get a squawk list with 84 items on it and hem and haw about whether the seller is going to fix all of these items, 72 of which you would try to talk your own mechanic out of at the next annual. And the point of all this is to presumably get an airplane that will serve you well at minimal cost and - perhaps most importantly - minimal surprises.

But the truth is airplane ownership is full of surprises and they just start when you buy the plane. The way you survive in a seller's market is to quickly focus on the big gotchas that can be rapidly and objectively determined (eg complete logbooks) and accept that you cannot string out the deal for 3 months futilely trying to eliminate all risk to the purchase.

You're going to take some calculated risks. Say you have a bonanza with 10 year old paint, 1 year old glass panel and a 1200SMOH engine installed 8 years ago. That indicates an involved seller. That airplane is likely to be a good airplane. If you want it, go give the man a $5,000 deposit and close the deal within a week. Bring your mechanic to look at the logs and maybe cut an oil filter open.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 130 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 9  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2021

.dshannon.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.garmin-85x200-2021-05-24.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Microkit_85x50.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.airpower-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.AAI.jpg.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.methodseven-85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.ps_engineering.gif.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.kingairdom.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.rtc-85x200.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.STLAir_85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.
.EagleFuelCellsTriple.jpg.
.southseas-85x50-2021.png.
.dynon-85x50.jpg.
.camguard.jpg.
.avionicssource-85x50.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.Expert_Aircraft_Solution_85x50.jpg.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.tempest.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.KalAir_Black.jpg.
.Flaremeter_85x50_v2.png.
.truecourse.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.heartlandsm.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.echelon-85x50.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.westsky.jpg.
.greenwich-85x50-2020-08-10.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.bkool-85x50-2014-08-04.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.McPeck_85x50.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.SierraTrax_85x50.jpeg.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.jaair-85x100.jpg.
.Davis_Aviation_85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.aspen-85x100.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.avidyne-85x50-2017-11-22.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.instar.jpg.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.