19 Apr 2024, 06:09 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 10 Sep 2022, 05:45 |
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Joined: 12/17/17 Posts: 25 Post Likes: +6 Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
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Username Protected wrote:
Try John Lumley (561-271-7638). I think he is still active, if not he can refer you to someone. He is a little south but knows PA23s.
Thank you for referral
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 21 Sep 2022, 20:06 |
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Joined: 01/22/19 Posts: 886 Post Likes: +664 Location: KFXE
Aircraft: PA23-250
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John spends his summers up at his camp in Wisconsin, and comes back in October. If he's not available, I can be with some advance notice, here in Fort Lauderdale.
_________________ A&P/IA/CFI/avionics tech KFXE Cirrus aircraft expert
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 22 Sep 2022, 11:39 |
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Joined: 12/17/17 Posts: 25 Post Likes: +6 Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
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Yea looks like John isn't back til very end of the year. He doesn't have any other recomendations.
Glenn- I'd be interested in working with you if you could fit me in!
Tommy
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 22 Sep 2022, 11:40 |
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Joined: 12/17/17 Posts: 25 Post Likes: +6 Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
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Yea looks like John isn't back til very end of the year. He doesn't have any other recomendations.
Glenn- I'd be interested in working with you if you could fit me in!
Tommy
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 09:04 |
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Joined: 08/01/11 Posts: 6760 Post Likes: +4469 Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
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Any issues on the turbo installation? I am referencing problems on the twin Cessna with exhausts being broken and cutting through wing spars or engine fires.
_________________ Fly High,
Ryan Holt CFI
"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 12:03 |
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Joined: 06/02/10 Posts: 7251 Post Likes: +4520 Company: Inscrutable Fasteners, LLC Location: West Palm Beach - F45
Aircraft: Planeless
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Username Protected wrote: Any issues on the turbo installation? I am referencing problems on the twin Cessna with exhausts being broken and cutting through wing spars or engine fires. I seem to recall the issues with turbo-ed twin Cessnas is that the turbos are mounted to the airframe and not the engine. Best, Rich
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 12:28 |
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Joined: 01/19/16 Posts: 3342 Post Likes: +5685 Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A
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Username Protected wrote: Any issues on the turbo installation? I am referencing problems on the twin Cessna with exhausts being broken and cutting through wing spars or engine fires. Aztecs used three basic turbo systems over the years with some slight variations. The STCed RAYJAY turbo normalizer system uses dual turbos and two manually adjustable waste gates actuated by a split vernier control. They are operator limited to 30” but can pull sea level power into the teens. It uses an induction airbox that has a balanced flapper that automatically closes off the lower pressure side The drawbacks are parts availability, cost of OH and higher CHTs mainly due to lack of inter coolers. The benefits are non or low boosted takeoffs so a turbo, waste gate or induction pipe failure is not effectively an engine failure. The higher compression pistons are retained and the TBO is still 2000 hrs. Higher CHTs when boosted usually results in more cylinder head cracking. They utilize an accessory scavenge pump and a separate turbo oil system filter. The exhaust pipes are robust but the wastegate actuating system is poorly designed. The factory system that was available on the C and D is an electric actuated “on/off” system that is also turbo normalizing. They utilize a single larger turbo and work well but are very hard to source parts for. They have a different cowling design and have an additional pair of cowl flaps. Recommend TBO is reduced to 2000 hrs. The factory optional E/F Airesearch system is boosted to achieve rated 250 HP with lower compression pistons. It utilizes a density controller, larger cowl flaps, 1200 series mags, and piston cooling oil spray jets. They are typically reliable and have better parts availability. The induction air is taken from the front cowl inlets that are slightly enlarged instead of a separate lower inlet scoop. The Turbo systems don’t seem to have blow out issues as everything is forward of the firewall and mounted to the engines so they move in unison. The normally aspirated aircraft have issues with the forward exhaust cross over burning the fiberglass nose bowls. None of the turbo models have that problem.
Last edited on 25 Sep 2022, 16:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 15:06 |
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Joined: 08/01/11 Posts: 6760 Post Likes: +4469 Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
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Username Protected wrote: Any issues on the turbo installation? I am referencing problems on the twin Cessna with exhausts being broken and cutting through wing spars or engine fires. Aztecs used three basic turbo systems over the years with some slight variations. The STCed RAYJAY turbo normalizer system uses dual turbos and two manually adjustable waste gates actuated by a split vernier control. They are operator limited to 30” but can pull sea level power into the teens. It uses an induction airbox that has a balanced flapper that automatically closes off the lower pressure side The drawbacks are parts availability, cost of OH and higher CHTs mainly due to lack of inter coolers. The benefits are non or low boosted takeoffs so a turbo, waste gate or induction pipe failure is not effectively an engine failure. The higher compression pistons are retained and the TBO is still 2000 hrs. Higher CHTs when boosted usually results in more cylinder head cracking. They utilize an accessory scavenge pump and a separate turbo oil system filter. The exhaust pipes are robust but the wastegate actuating system is poorly designed. The factory system that was available on the C and D is an electric actuated “on/off” system that is also turbo normalizing. They utilize a single larger turbo and work well but are very hard to source parts for. They have a different cowling design and have an additional pair of cowl flaps. The factory optional E/F Airesearch system is boosted to achieve rated 250 HP with lower compression pistons. It utilizes a density controller, larger cowl flaps, 1200 series mags, and piston cooling oil spray jets. TBO is reduced to 1800. They are typically reliable and have better parts availability. The induction air is taken from the front cowl inlets that are slightly enlarged instead of a separate lower inlet scoop. The Turbo systems don’t seem to have blow out issues as everything is forward of the firewall and mounted to the engines so they move in unison. The normally aspirated aircraft have issues with the forward exhaust cross over burning the fiberglass nose bowls. None of the turbo models have that problem.
Nice overview. As I recall, the factory turbo engines are very expensive.
_________________ Fly High,
Ryan Holt CFI
"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 16:21 |
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Joined: 12/16/09 Posts: 364 Post Likes: +157 Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
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"TBO is reduced to 1800. "
For a factory turbo'd F model? Wow, that's news to me.
My understanding is/was a 2000 tbo. TIO540-C1A.
Mark
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 16:31 |
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Joined: 01/19/16 Posts: 3342 Post Likes: +5685 Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A
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Username Protected wrote: "TBO is reduced to 1800. "
For a factory turbo'd F model? Wow, that's news to me.
My understanding is/was a 2000 tbo. TIO540-C1A.
Mark You are correct. The earlier TIO-540J4A5 in the C has a recommended 1800 hr TBO. I believe the CIA originally had an 1800 TBO and was later amended to 2000.
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 17:18 |
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Joined: 12/17/17 Posts: 25 Post Likes: +6 Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
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Username Protected wrote: Any issues on the turbo installation? I am referencing problems on the twin Cessna with exhausts being broken and cutting through wing spars or engine fires. The factory optional E/F Airesearch system is boosted to achieve rated 250 HP with lower compression pistons. It utilizes a density controller, larger cowl flaps, 1200 series mags, and piston cooling oil spray jets. They are typically reliable and have better parts availability. The induction air is taken from the front cowl inlets that are slightly enlarged instead of a separate lower inlet scoop.
This is a super interesting comparison. Thank you Norman. We close on an “E” model turbo tomorrow. How does the density controller operate? Is it fixed or pre-set like a lot of fixed wastegates ?
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 18:47 |
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Joined: 01/29/09 Posts: 4697 Post Likes: +2404 Company: retired corporate mostly Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
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Quote: The normally aspirated aircraft have issues with the forward exhaust cross over burning the fiberglass nose bowls. None of the turbo models have that problem. I flew a 1974 E model factory turbo(Air Research). On takeoff roll after an annual in FLL, I noticed an odor and power difference.. aborted, returned to maintenance. They had not securely reconnected the crossover, and it torched the nose bowl. As you said, I never had a problem with heat there before.
_________________ Jeff
soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.
Last edited on 25 Sep 2022, 19:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 18:49 |
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Joined: 12/16/09 Posts: 364 Post Likes: +157 Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
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Username Protected wrote: Basically the waste gate is operated by an oil pressure actuator that is controlled in response to throttle setting, temperatures and pressures to maintain a constant power setting automatically during a climb or descent. It also limits the manifold pressure and is ground adjustable. The RAYJAY system this must be done manually every thousand feet or so and in the early C model factory system it is simply switched on during high altitude operations and off prior to or during descent. In that case the waste gate is controlled with an electric solenoid.
If anyone is interested I will be listing an over the top Turbo F soon for one of my customers. It is not the one with coffin door, RStol and nacelle tanks but it has fresh paint, avionics, engines, boot etc and it does have my carbon fiber quick cowls. (See first page or two of this thread for info on the cowls).
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Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread Posted: 25 Sep 2022, 21:59 |
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Joined: 08/31/17 Posts: 1592 Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
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Mark is that yours?!? I’d sell my Aztec for a turbine or a nicer Aztec that’s it.
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