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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 10:03 
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Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
I was hot to trot on a Saratoga/Lance for longest time, No way would I go back to one of those. Club seats seam great until you’re there for 4 hours and 600 miles.

Aztec cabin is HUGE. Tall. My kids and wife can swap from front copilot seat to back seats during flight. Try that in a Seneca. Stand up (bent over) to change clothes or have a kid use emergency potty? Easy.

Aztec is amazing 4 place airplane with the door side middle seat removed like Norm described. Everyone has tons of leg room, the middle row seats move for and aft.
Passenger loading is non issue unless they can’t climb even a small step. The copilot seat is the hardest to get into actually, the cabin is quite easy, step down and bend at waist, small steps to your seat. The luggage compartments are enormous. Take the back bench seat leave both middle row seats inside and you’ve got 5 plus feet of cargo floor space. I hauled 50cc dirtbikes in there. Or 4 bikes and 4 people.

We ride in the 180 now together and wonder how we used to travel like this. Aztec has more cabin room than my wife’s Honda Pilot. And it has more luggage capacity too.

Did I mention I like the Aztec?
Mark mentioned the Stec55x autopilot- that’s the only real autopilot option available which if you’re dead set on modernest avionics might be deal breaker for you. I have the altimatic vi which is working very well (thanks bob) but I wish we had more autopilot options. GFC600 were available for Aztec well I would have one and probably another 60k of garmin parts to boot.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 10:18 
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Joined: 04/17/19
Posts: 368
Post Likes: +116
Location: KMMU - New Jersey
Aircraft: Piper Aztec
Username Protected wrote:
Hey guys- thx for the recommendation to Apache owners forum. I have been soaking up so much information from here and other forums. I find myself in a pickle of deciding on pursuing an Aztec (late model F) or seneca III.

Our mission is 4 people with lots of baggage 300-600nm trips. My wife loves the entry/egress to the Seneca but you just can't shake hearing so many great recommendations on the Aztec. The cabin being actually bigger and taller than the seneca. Larger designated baggage compartments, better landing characteristics, arguably better built? I admittedly made the gentlemen who owns the decked out 71 turbo aztec (N14040) down in south Florida a generous offer but he wouldn't negotiate a price under $400k. I feel like I'm about to pull the trigger on a senecca iii, but feel unsure. Anything I'm missing here? Is an Aztec good for the occasional soft field ? Can a seneca do the same?


I've only flown in a Seneca once and I own a '69 D model Aztec so I might be a little biased...

First I know you can ask whatever you want for a plane, but are people actually getting $400K for an Aztec?

I know the W&B for the turbo Aztec is a little different than the non-turbo, I think it just effects the forward CG limit but I'm not positive. That said, in my Aztec I can carry just shy of 1200 lbs in the cabin with full fuel (140gal usable). the problem with the Aztec loading is the zero fuel weight which is 4400lbs and the Aztec carries 840lbs of fuel which means you aren't trading any fuel for load capability, you can still shed fuel for performance.

Loading restrictions are 150lbs max in each of the front and rear baggage compartments, but you can of course put bags (and other stuff) in place of the third row of seats (the factory W&B includes the weight for each seat so they can be removed). I also find it very easy to be out of FORWARD CG when it is just 2 people in the plane and nothing else, because of this I usually leave a case of oil in the rear baggage compartment.

Disadvantage to the Aztec is it isn't super fast especially for the amount of fuel you burn, but the engines also aren't working very hard either. The old saying about you know an Aztec is loaded when you can't close the door is often true, I went to OSH this past year, 4 people and camping gear, we were running out of room to put things and I was stull more than 150lbs below gross. Then on the way home I picked up a 5th person (although I did pass some stuff to another friend that drove).

-Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 11:33 
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Joined: 01/29/09
Posts: 4693
Post Likes: +2403
Company: retired corporate mostly
Location: Chico,California KCIC/CL56
Aircraft: 1956 Champion 7EC
Quote:
The benefit to the E is you can use Metco tips.


I flew a new 74 Robertson STOL Turbo Aztec for 1500 hours and we traded up for a 78 F model.
A few years later I noticed our old plane at KPBI and went to look. It had added Metco tip tanks and I think nacelle tanks, also an ADF indicator mounted on the glareshield. (prior to LORAN and GPS)

I believe it was a tree top flyer...

_________________
Jeff

soloed in a land of Superhomers/1959 Cessna 150, retired with Proline 21/ CJ4.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 12:28 
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Joined: 12/17/17
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +6
Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
AS for the Turbo down in Fort Pierce- it is decked out. The guy has a lot of money in it. When I start adding up everything i want in an Aztec, It does short cut you to that point. Getting Insurance for that Hull Value is another big issue. Also- no de-ice...WTH???did they make Trubos with no de-ice?

1971 PIPER TURBO AZTEC PA23- 250 Model E

Fully Refurbished, Overhauled, and ready to go NOW

Super Low Total Time: 2645.8 Hrs.

Engines Lycoming TIO 540 C1A

Both Engines TTSOH: 66 Hrs.

Done in Sep. 2017 By Certified Engines Unlimited Inc of Pembroke Pines Florida

Propeller Hartzell F-6-5A

Both Propeller TTSOH: 66 Hrs.

Done in Jan 2018 by Aero Propeller of Miami Inc in Miami Florida

Highly Updated Avionics (Garmin glass cockpit)

• IFR certified and Synthetic vision

• G500 GDU 620 (Primary flight instrument)

- Jeppesen Jepp View with Synthetic Vision

• GTN 750 Jepp View

• GTX 345 (ADSB out & in transponder

ADDITIONAL EQUIPMENT and STC’s

• Single piece windshield

• Quick release cowlings

• Carbon fiber nose bowls

• Robertson STOL kit

• Ambulance door

• Dual hydraulic pump

Fuel – 244 gallons Tanks (240 usable fuel)

New Paint Done Sept 2021 10 out of 10

New Interior Done in Sept 2021 10 out of 10

Last annual was done March 2022 fresh “ANNUAL INSPECTION”.

ASKING PRICE: MAKE AN OFFER

From the owner:

“This is a rough estimate of what the upgrades and OH cost that we can prove with receipts. We’ve also spent a good amount on maintenance and part replacements.

Avionics (new) - $160,000

Interior & exterior (new) - $27,000

Engines (new) - $120,000

Propellers (new) - $14,000

Airframe purchase- $35,000

Quick release cowling STC - $14,000

Inspections/manual labor - $50,000

TOTAL -$420,000 “


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 12:59 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
Post Likes: +157
Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
Link to this $400k Aztec?

Thx.

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 13:02 
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Joined: 04/17/19
Posts: 368
Post Likes: +116
Location: KMMU - New Jersey
Aircraft: Piper Aztec
Username Protected wrote:
AS for the Turbo down in Fort Pierce- it is decked out. The guy has a lot of money in it. When I start adding up everything i want in an Aztec, It does short cut you to that point. Getting Insurance for that Hull Value is another big issue. Also- no de-ice...WTH???did they make Turbos with no de-ice?



I haven't priced an Aztec out in years so I really don't know what they are selling for. I will say it is a nice looking plane.

https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/21416 ... bo-aztec-e

In terms of de-ice, my airplane did not come with it but had it added by BF Goodrich about 4 yrs after the plane was manufactured via their STC in July 1973.

With the insurance I think you can get the hull insured for whatever you want, but you are going to pay a premium especially if the insurance company feels you are upside down on its value.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 13:32 
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Joined: 08/31/17
Posts: 1589
Post Likes: +623
Aircraft: C180
Don’t sell mark nothing to replace it except turbine!


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 13:59 
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Joined: 12/17/17
Posts: 24
Post Likes: +6
Company: Aqua-tots
Aircraft: Pa-27 Turbo
Yea- Its a good looking airplane. It is hard to justify a $400k Aztec. I keep trying to find an airplane to compare this too but there's very little available out there with low-ish total time, fresh engines and updates avionics.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 14:19 
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Joined: 07/24/14
Posts: 1754
Post Likes: +2213
Username Protected wrote:
Yea- Its a good looking airplane. It is hard to justify a $400k Aztec.

It's like building a $1mm house in a trailer park. He ain't never gonna get anything close to what he has in it.

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Jay


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 15:03 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
Post Likes: +157
Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
Now i remember seeing that one.

No ice protection is a def no-go for a turbo anything, IMO. I had a T210 prior to the Aztec. Flying in the icy northwest i learned piston turbo aircraft have the performance to get you in trouble, but not always enough performance to get you out of trouble.

All that invested...you'd think tidying up those yokes would be on the to-do list.

I came close to selling 4MM a few years ago...until i looked really hard at what it cost to get even close to the same bang for the buck. It was a come to Jesus moment.

Jacob, thanks for the reminder. You're spot on! ;)

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 15:08 
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Joined: 08/01/11
Posts: 6689
Post Likes: +4354
Location: In between the opioid and marijuana epidemics
Aircraft: 182, A36TC
Do long nosed Aztecs fit in a standard t hangar? Are Nacelle lockers available?

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Fly High,

Ryan Holt CFI

"Paranoia and PTSD are requirements not diseases"


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 15:31 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
Post Likes: +157
Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
Yes they do. Its tight but easily doable...another positive check mark for the 'Truck for me.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 15:33 
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Joined: 12/16/09
Posts: 364
Post Likes: +157
Location: Snohomish, WA
Aircraft: PA-27 Turbo
No on the nacelle lockers as far as i know. It's a full nacelle as is.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 18:22 
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Joined: 01/19/16
Posts: 3270
Post Likes: +5489
Location: 13FA Earle Airpark FL/0A7 Hville NC
Aircraft: E33/152A
Username Protected wrote:
Do long nosed Aztecs fit in a standard t hangar? Are Nacelle lockers available?



Miller did initially offer the turtle back nacelles with 22.5 gallons each or storage compartments but they were not big enough to be of much use. I have a pair for my 180HP Miller/Geronimo Apache.

The price referenced above for the quick release cowl mod is a bit high. I sell the carbon fiber horizontally split nose bowls with larger air inlets for $3,350 per airplane set. They are typically used with the Nomad lower cowl mod that Dave sells for under $1,000. Labor to install both and paint should be about $2,000 for a total installation cost of less than half of referenced. It is a really worthwhile mod that saves a ton of labor and makes the engines run cooler.

I am brokering a nice 73 E that will be advertised for $89.5K shortly. I will post it here when I finish the ad. PM if interested.


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 Post subject: Re: The Piper Aztec/Apache thread
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2022, 18:58 
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Joined: 09/06/13
Posts: 91
Post Likes: +61
Location: Orlando, FL
Aircraft: PA27, BE9L, CE560XL
I’ll chime in super quick on the Seneca vs Aztec discussion…for me it’s the Aztec, not even close. Seneca’s are fine, and the back door is great, but they ride like crud in turbulence and the cowlings obstruct visibility. Not pleasant to hand fly either. This saying nothing of small bore turbo Continental vs loafing big bore NA or turbo Lycs.

At one point a few years ago I owned a Seneca 3, two Aztecs, and was brokering a beautiful 58 Baron. An embarrassment of riches. To just go out and fly? The Baron, all day. To own and operate? The Aztec for us, we travel heavy and bulky and I love Lyc 540’s. The Seneca was a very distant third.


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