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16 Apr 2024, 08:35 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 13:03 
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Username Protected wrote:
Tailwheel is easy and fun. If I can do it, you can do it. Seriously, it is not hard.

True. But it’s hardly a necessity. 30 years ago most of the places folks were flying for hire or as missionaries in 185’s and claiming it was tailwheel-only territory - all you’ll find at those same destinations today are 206’s.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 13:19 
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Jeff, I agree that both nose draggers and tail draggers can be back country capable. My position is that a lack of a tailwheel endorsement shouldn’t be considered much of a handicap. Lots of people fly tailwheels, it’s easy and fun! In my opinion, like most things, it’s not harder or easier, it’s just different, and not even too different.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 13:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
A tricycle gear STOL airplane :scratch:

Have a read through some of the material on the Zenith website. There's some moderately complicated technical discussion and Chris Heintz makes a pretty good case for tricycle gear on his STOL airplanes. With the slats on the 701 wing, the airplane has to pitch up at a pretty extreme angle on takeoff to present the wing at a high enough angle of attack. To achieve the same in a tricycle gear configuration of the same airplane, it would look like the STOL contest Cubs, with cartoonishly large main gear, a very nose-high stance, and a pretty ridiculous deck angle when the airplane is parked.

Different horses for different courses, there's more than one way to skin a cat...

:shrug:

If you generally enjoy reading about why a designer chose A instead of B, then you'll probably enjoy the articles on there.


The OV-10 was also a nose dragger, back country, STOL airplane. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 17:34 
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Joined: 10/04/19
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Company: Capella Partners
Location: Alpine Airpark, 46U
Aircraft: P35, TW Pacer
Username Protected wrote:
Jeff, I agree that both nose draggers and tail draggers can be back country capable. My position is that a lack of a tailwheel endorsement shouldn’t be considered much of a handicap. Lots of people fly tailwheels, it’s easy and fun! In my opinion, like most things, it’s not harder or easier, it’s just different, and not even too different.


What an absurd assertion. There's not a TW pilot on earth who can't proficiently fly nosewheel. Try putting a nosewheel pilot in a cub, different story for about 10 hours.

Take a pilot out of the airplane for a year. The nosewheel? Getting back on a bicycle. The tailwheel? Good luck if you don't stay current.

How about the adverse yaw characteristics of the average nosewheel vs the average tailwheel? How about maximum performance breaking without nosing over? How about crosswind landings? For a dozen reasons, it's just asinine to classify the TW as "not harder ... just different."

-J

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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 18:59 
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Ah yes, the common ‘only super pilots can fly tailwheel’ position.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 19:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
Ah yes, the common ‘only super pilots can fly tailwheel’ position.

No one is saying that. But the argument that they are indistinguishable from a nosewheel, is something no insurance company is going to agree with.


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 19:07 
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When did I they they were indistinguishable? All I said was that anyone can learn tailwheel. It’s not hard. I’d recommend tailwheel training to anyone, it’s just plain fun!


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2020, 20:01 
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Username Protected wrote:
When did I they they were indistinguishable? All I said was that anyone can learn tailwheel. It’s not hard. I’d recommend tailwheel training to anyone, it’s just plain fun!


Yes, just plain fun! I’ll recommend tailwheel training for everyone

I would have to say tailwheel landings are a bit harder though.

Maybe better put would be to say that tailwheel landings take more focus.
I have made darn near perfect wheel landings with 15mph+ crosswinds.

It’s those 7-10 mph crosswind landings where I forget I am flying a tailwheel that can get a bit embarrassing.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 08:30 
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Hi Keith,

I’ve only been in 2
160hp with wheels was at best 85mph
200hp on floats could go maybe 80
I doubt either of those extrapolate to 100+ with 205hp but maybe they’ve cleaned up the airframe somehow


Jeff:

I plan on taking a demo flight in the super duty, will let you know how it does.

Our roads here in Texas have 75-85 mph speed limits. So I am hoping the Zenith at minimum can outpace my pickup truck in cruise flight.

KJ


Depends on who is driving your pickup.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 09:39 
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Joined: 12/12/16
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Aircraft: Tecnam P2008
Zlin Norden anyone? At 4:00 in this video. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 09:57 
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Joined: 10/30/10
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Company: Ten Bits Ranch
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Aircraft: H35, F90, C205, C182
Username Protected wrote:
Zlin Norden anyone? At 4:00 in this video. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec


Retractable slats like this plane has would greatly help the cruise speed.

KJ


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 10:50 
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Username Protected wrote:
Zlin Norden anyone? At 4:00 in this video. https://youtu.be/5Olmfj7O4Ec


Retractable slats like this plane has would greatly help the cruise speed.

KJ


Exactly! The latest numbers with a 4 blade ground adjustable prop are showing 120 mph true airspeeds burning about 6.5 GPH of 91 octane with the 915 iS. Climb rates well above 1,500ft per minute. Takeoff in under 100’ and this video speaks for the landing distance. Stalls at 28 mph with slats and full flaps, power on stall at 23 mph.

https://fb.watch/1OipKILUtq/

All aluminum wing, custom electric retractable slats, custom double slotted flaps, tons of room inside and the cherry on top for me is the quick and precise handling from those who have flown it aided by pushrod control and frise ailerons. The base prices are really impressive as well.

Norden 912 ULS – 108,449 EUR
Norden 914 UL - $123,051 EUR
Norden 915 iS - $135,505 EUR

Brad, the Norden is the answer to your mission in my opinion. One of the most baffling things this year is the lack of talk or awareness about this aircraft.

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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 11:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
Retractable slats like this plane has would greatly help the cruise speed.

That's a bit like saying flaps would help a Cub's stall speed (cruise too).

Not trying to be a smart aleck about it (no, really), both statements are an expression of the old saying, "fast/cheap/reliable- pick two."


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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 11:43 
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Username Protected wrote:
Retractable slats like this plane has would greatly help the cruise speed.

That's a bit like saying flaps would help a Cub's stall speed (cruise too).

Not trying to be a smart aleck about it (no, really), both statements are an expression of the old saying, "fast/cheap/reliable- pick two."


Jim:

Zenith has a cruiser model with the slats removed from the STOL wing. It adds 18 mph to the cruise speed.

18 mph is a significant increase on a 100 mph plane.

If you could keep the STOL performance and increase cruise 18 mph by retracting the slats, I would.

KJ

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 Post subject: Re: Help with my next airplane- STOL
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2020, 11:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
That's a bit like saying flaps would help a Cub's stall speed (cruise too).

Not trying to be a smart aleck about it (no, really), both statements are an expression of the old saying, "fast/cheap/reliable- pick two."


Jim:

Zenith has a cruiser model with the slats removed from the STOL wing. It adds 18 mph to the cruise speed.

18 mph is a significant increase on a 100 mph plane.

If you could keep the STOL performance and increase cruise 18 mph by retracting the slats, I would.

KJ

Keith, I spend a lot of time around the STOL aircraft. I would suggest you fly a Zenith before you commit. I personally am not a fan. The Norden looks good on paper, but there are not any out in the wild that I have came across. It is just almost impossible to beat a SuperCub or a Husky for overall performance and usage. All of these LSA type are great, but very limited in what they can haul.
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