17 Apr 2024, 15:51 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 12:42 |
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Joined: 10/22/14 Posts: 1476 Post Likes: +1117 Location: Jacksonville (CRG) / Sebring (SEF) FL
Aircraft: '79 TN F33A
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Username Protected wrote: Those are some eye watering prices for the Astra. Citation V with a stop operates for about 1/4-1/3 of those prices. If anyone knows anything about Westwinds, I'd love to learn more. I heard they leak fuel but have hourly only mx. As a kid I tagged along with my mom on a few air ambulance flights, she was a nurse. The company had a couple of Westwinds, we flew non-stop Puerto Rico to Andrews AFB. There must be some serious maintenance costs with them listed on controller that cheap. https://www.controller.com/listings/for ... aircraft/3
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 22:51 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: Honestly I thought they would be cheaper to operate than that. $55,000 every 250 landings for brakes!
How many hours are you getting for that 500K a year? Hard to justify that when you can get an airplane that can do the same trip with a stop for maybe 20% the cost. That will get you about 200 hrs/ year, or just shy of 90,000 miles. We also run a Citation 550 and a CJ as well, and to get that kind of mileage in either of those, we’ll be running between 260-270 hrs per year. Even with the time savings, it’s still a solid $100,000 more per year to run the Astra over either of the Citations. As to justifying the extra coin - it’s all about time for our guys. Being able to get anywhere without the 30-60 minute fuel/potty stop carries a lot a value. Could we do it cheaper? You bet, and we did for a while in the Citations! But we need the ability to do it without a stop, and for that requirement, the Astra is the cheapest out there for the job.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 23:10 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: Those are some eye watering prices for the Astra. Citation V with a stop operates for about 1/4-1/3 of those prices. If anyone knows anything about Westwinds, I'd love to learn more. I heard they leak fuel but have hourly only mx. Agree - it’s expensive no doubt. Good friend of mine is a chief pilot for a large flight department. He’s famous for saying anything more than a Citation V/Ultra is just for the ego. To a point I agree with him. I’ve got quite a bit of time in the ol Westwinds. You’re correct on both points - hourly maint and they leak fuel. The rule is if it ain’t leaking, it’s empty . The last time I flew a Westwind was 2014. I enjoyed all my years flying them, but man they could drive you crazy sometimes with the issues. We knew of some operators that would do west coast to Hawaii, but there’s no way I’d do that. Longest leg we ever flew in the 10yrs I flew them was a touch over 2,000 nm. 4:45 for that leg. Longest flight time was 5:09 - about 1600nm into the winds. The advertised range is what I would call optimistic. If you have the luxury of downtime when the airplane requires maint, you can cut the costs significantly. Our little operation runs about 3500 hr annually, so we don’t have extra downtime to spare. When it breaks, we need parts now from a source that can get it to us now. That’s one of the big considerations for us when we look at adding another bird to the fleet. And that costs money :(
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 23:23 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: What makes an Astro so expensive to maintain relative to a citation ultra? Is it all hydraulic? I know that’s one of the things that kills the falcon 10 and 20 Since we run a 550, CJ, and the Astra’s we have a front row seat to real costs - but note - our operation requires dispatch rates that mean overnighting parts and going to shops that can turn a big inspection out quickly. Both of those mean an increase in running costs. I cannot let the airplane sit idle for 2 weeks while we do a Phase 1-4 on the 550 or an A check on the Astra. We knock those out in 4 days and the airplanes are back running a trip the next day. Parts are more expensive on the Astra than the Citations, but it also doesn’t break as much, but it does account for a small increase on the budget. Fuel is another area where the Astra costs more than the Citations. Our average fuel burn on the 550 is 1200 lbs/hr. We’re seeing 1600/hr on the Astra. Not a big difference, but it adds up at the end of the year. Add an extra pilot to the budgets as well for the Astra, although we run everything but the CJ with 2 crew, so that’s not really a factor for us. Overall it’s about $100,000/yr more to run the Astra than the 550 or 525.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 23:24 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: Those are some eye watering prices for the Astra. Citation V with a stop operates for about 1/4-1/3 of those prices. If anyone knows anything about Westwinds, I'd love to learn more. I heard they leak fuel but have hourly only mx. As a kid I tagged along with my mom on a few air ambulance flights, she was a nurse. The company had a couple of Westwinds, we flew non-stop Puerto Rico to Andrews AFB. There must be some serious maintenance costs with them listed on controller that cheap. https://www.controller.com/listings/for ... aircraft/3
Bingo. Maint and parts issues was the big nudge that got us away from the Westwinds.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 19 Oct 2020, 23:35 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: It’s fast, quiet, reliable, and fully supported by Mother Gulfstream (although Momma G is dang proud of her parts $$). Yes, if Textron price$ make us cry, get your box of tissues. Momma "G" makes some great parts and has amazing quality control with her suppliers and the best mechanics in the world working in some really nice places for pilots, owners, A&Ps and MX Chief's to visit. They also have great AOG support as well though properly maintained IAI/Gulfstreams are rarely AOG and, if so, rarely AOG for long. You might also look at the G100s that are out there. They are the older brother/twin to the Astra SPX. As of late last year there were still a few old turboprop G-1s flying and, from time to time, I see them on the ramp in Savannah. It's impressive that Gulfstream still supports them. Disclaimer - I used to be a contractor/vendor and still happily opine that they make the World's Best Premier Intercontinental Business Jet and it trickles down to the baby Gulfstreams.
We have one SPx and one G100. So far Gulfstream has been fantastic. As they should be for what they charge! Can’t say the same for Textron. They seem hell bent on racing to the bottom of the pile when it comes to customer care and support. Nothing but problems and it’s getting worse. We visit Savannah frequently as one of our guys keeps an office there. I’m always in awe at what the G Machine is getting done there.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 20 Oct 2020, 19:42 |
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Joined: 06/09/09 Posts: 4573 Post Likes: +3298
Aircraft: C182P, Merlin IIIC
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Daniel, did you know Robin Smith? You use Trimec at all for the SPX aircraft?
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 20 Oct 2020, 21:08 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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Username Protected wrote: Daniel, did you know Robin Smith? You use Trimec at all for the SPX aircraft? Erwin, I sure don’t, although I have worked with Trimec several times. We are very fortunate to have a fantastic shop here in Atlanta that has a couple of guys there that were working on these things when they were new, so they really know these things inside and out. It’s a tremendous resource to have at home, and part of why we felt comfortable pulling the trigger with the Astra/G100. Having strong, local support cannot be emphasized enough. With regards to Trimec, our SPx we have was maintained exclusively by Trimec by the owner we bought it from for the entire 10 year period they owned it. It was well maintained and we can thank Trimec for that. The pre buy we did was quite intensive, and it sailed through without too much fuss. If we did not have the shop here at home that we do, we certainly would have given Trimec a solid shot at continuing to provide maintenance for the A-C checks. 600 or so miles is a bit far to fly for tires and general service
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 22 Oct 2020, 09:49 |
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Joined: 06/10/10 Posts: 378 Post Likes: +76
Aircraft: 787/737/CL30/BE90-20
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Another option would simply be chartering a midsize / super midsize jet, depending on your city pairs and your ability to schedule trips.
You can get a lot of charter hours for the money you are talking about without the ownership/operational work that you would need take on to own/operate an Astra SPX/similar jet.
Just a point to consider.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 22 Oct 2020, 11:08 |
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Joined: 09/05/12 Posts: 676 Post Likes: +485 Location: Vero Beach, FL
Aircraft: C310R, E55P, H130T2
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Username Protected wrote: +1 on the Astra/Gulfstream Series. A close friend of mine owned a G150 for many years. His biggest grip with it was the maintenance. According to him they were treated like the red headed step child in the Gulfstream maintenance network. He traded it out for a Latitude last month. I did ride in it, very comfortable plane. You can get a Hawker 900XP or Lear 60 for a song and a dance, not sure about operating cost but that might be worth a look...heard maintenance can be difficult for these birds.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 22 Oct 2020, 14:46 |
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Joined: 10/22/14 Posts: 1476 Post Likes: +1117 Location: Jacksonville (CRG) / Sebring (SEF) FL
Aircraft: '79 TN F33A
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Username Protected wrote: +1 on the Astra/Gulfstream Series. A close friend of mine owned a G150 for many years. His biggest grip with it was the maintenance. This friend local to me?
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 22 Oct 2020, 16:41 |
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Joined: 11/30/18 Posts: 2230 Post Likes: +1719 Location: NH
Aircraft: F33A, A320
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You can get a late model Hawker for not a lot of money these days. It will do west coast to east coast all day, and east coast to west coast if the winds are light. Great cabin and a very easy airplane to fly.
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Post subject: Re: Cheapest 2500 mile range jets to run Posted: 22 Oct 2020, 22:56 |
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Joined: 11/18/16 Posts: 83 Post Likes: +78
Aircraft: King Air C90
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We looked real hard at the Hawker 800xp when we were shopping. We looked at the Hawker and the Astra/G100 side by side on the ramp, and hands down everyone that would be riding in the back preferred the Hawker. It’s a fantastic cabin. Ultimately the Hawker was eliminated solely due to the maintenace schedule. Far and away the worst maint schedule I’ve ever seen....$$$$
We had both of ours out today. 400 mile trips each one way. 2 hrs and 510 gallons round trip. For reference for everyone - same trip in the 550 would have been 2.6 hrs and 450 gallons round trip. The CJ would have been 3 hrs and 420 gallons round trip. Not too terrible, and certainly more comfortable for our folks today since each bird had 6 on board.
We have a west coast trip a week from today. I’ll report in with our trip time and fuel and a close cost for reference for everyone.
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