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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2021, 22:41 
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It was not that valve positions were incorrectly reported, 13 valves failed to open:

I smell software.

If Boeing calls me to be the first passenger on Starliner, I'm not going.

If SpaceX calls me for Dragon, I'll be packed in seconds.

Mike C.

I’m right there with you Mike, on both counts.
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2021, 22:42 
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It seems that the Starliner problems are more significant than Boeing first reported. It was not that valve positions were incorrectly reported, 13 valves failed to open:

https://gizmodo.com/what-in-the-hell-is ... 1847457012

I’m stunned…. No, wait, that’s not the word…. “Not surprised”, yeah, that’s it.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2021, 09:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
It was not that valve positions were incorrectly reported, 13 valves failed to open:

I smell software.

If Boeing calls me to be the first passenger on Starliner, I'm not going.

If SpaceX calls me for Dragon, I'll be packed in seconds.

Mike C.

"John Freas": "I’m right there with you Mike, on both counts."

Ditto.

Odds are 5:1 Parker is the supplier. They don't make errors like that. I don't know of any (US) suppliers that would or that it would make it out of the test cells.

"smells like software" Im stealing that! :)
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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 11 Aug 2021, 09:59 
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Thirteen valves "failed to open", and from the Gizmodo article they're out there banging on them and heating them with torches to get them to move. WTF? Really? If they do, then what? You gonna say "all good" and flip the switch?

Geeze. Unless they can demonstrate that it's a software issue (highly likely, and all their fault) they need to pull every pump that won't respond and send it to the supplier for forensic analysis. If it was software, now after banging and burning the valves they're going to need to replace those anyway. If by some freak chance it was a quality spill at the supplier, why was it only caught on the pad at the last minute? Are no tests run prior to that?

The dark horse in the running is a lightning strike that they've been hinting at, though no actual strike has been reported. If it was that, then my question changes to "where's your lightning protection?" Apollo 12 received a direct multiple strike in flight and still completed its mission. No excuses Boeing.

My guess is best case it'll be ready to try again in October. Worst case? Well, it hasn't flown "right" yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2021, 17:48 
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Starliner delayed indefinitely and will return to the factory. Boeing blaming corrosion …

Non-Boeing experts are predicting Starliner will not fly before Feb 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08 ... ue-solved/

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 13 Aug 2021, 22:59 
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Starliner delayed indefinitely and will return to the factory. Boeing blaming corrosion …

Non-Boeing experts are predicting Starliner will not fly before Feb 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08 ... ue-solved/

I’m predicting that at this rate it won’t fly at all. Given what it is and who made it, that’s probably the safest outcome.

Corrosion.

On thirteen valves.

:doh:

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2021, 08:35 
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...why was it only caught on the pad at the last minute? Are no tests run prior to that?
You've heard the phrase, "Faster, Better, Cheaper...Pick any Two." I think Boeing picked faster and cheaper. The Space Shuttle program was routinely criticized for being too expensive but at least we kept a purge on all pumps and valves to prevent corrosion. After landing, the main engines were purged with hot Nitrogen for 12 hours to carry away any remaining water from the Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel. Dessicant plugs were applied to all the thrusters. We also tested just about everything before rolling out to the launch pad. We chose "Better". :pullhair:

P.S. Since the stuck valves are in the hypergol system, they're going to have to drain and purge the system before they can even look at those valves. On the Shuttle program, we had a Hypergol Maintenance Facility [HMF] way out in the boonies where such dangerous operations were handled. I have no idea if Boeing built a similar facility for the Starliner but they're going to need one.


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 14 Aug 2021, 12:11 
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Perhaps Boeing hired talent from Facebook, where the motto is: Move fast & break things.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 11:18 
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Corrosion = Bigger delays

[youtube]https://youtu.be/OM2UpLIpRhI[/youtube]

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2021, 21:57 
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I love a robust design.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 19 May 2022, 14:52 
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Starliner delayed indefinitely and will return to the factory. Boeing blaming corrosion …

Non-Boeing experts are predicting Starliner will not fly before Feb 2022.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/08 ... ue-solved/

Boeing is gonna trying again today @ 6:54PM EDT

https://youtu.be/21X5lGlDOfg

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 19 May 2022, 16:40 
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The root cause of the valve issue was determined to be corrosion from nitric acid, which had formed as a result of water vapor in the air reacting with the dinitrogen tetroxide that Starliner uses as an oxidizer. Ultimately, Boeing decided to swap out the service module for one that had been due to fly the CFT mission. The new service module incorporates a nitrogen purge system to help mitigate the problem, with spacecraft fueling and pre-launch procedures also amended.
They had this all figured out on the Shuttle program. :pullhair:


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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 19 May 2022, 21:15 
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Quote:
The root cause of the valve issue was determined to be corrosion from nitric acid, which had formed as a result of water vapor in the air reacting with the dinitrogen tetroxide that Starliner uses as an oxidizer. Ultimately, Boeing decided to swap out the service module for one that had been due to fly the CFT mission. The new service module incorporates a nitrogen purge system to help mitigate the problem, with spacecraft fueling and pre-launch procedures also amended.
They had this all figured out on the Shuttle program. :pullhair:

You might want to drop them a note John, it sounds like they didn’t get the memo from the STS team, and it sounds to me like they still don’t understand the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 20 May 2022, 00:34 
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it sounds like they didn’t get the memo from the STS team, and it sounds to me like they still don’t understand the problem.

New people means past experience is lost and old mistakes occur again.

Mike C.

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 Post subject: Re: Boeing Starliner: 80 Problems
PostPosted: 20 May 2022, 06:51 
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They had this all figured out on the Shuttle program. :pullhair:

Do you know what the shuttle program did to resolve the valve issue or are you just saying that they used the same kind of valves successfully?

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