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28 Mar 2024, 08:28 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 13:37 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 396
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Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
Username Protected wrote:
Mark - why did you go from Avanti to Citation? Be interesting to hear your thoughts.



Hi Adam, mostly it was for range and weather topping ability. Loved my Piaggioi but found on my typical Dallas to Key West route on the Q routes weather sat at FL380 quite a bit of time. The P180 (mine at least) struggled to get to 400 to top these lines leading to some interesting times going through…

Also the cockpit of the P180 is a bit tighter than I liked although not a deal killer.

The landing speeds of 120 knots over the fence limited my runway use too, whereas the S2 with its 90 knot ref AND reversers open up a bit more areas.

Finally I guess I am a sucker for pure jets…going back to props proved a bit of a downer no matter how cool the airframe.

In the end I wasn’t UNhappy with the Piaggio (selling it made a nice profit) but it didn’t fit my missions of 1200 mile typical flights. (Westbound especially)


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2022, 23:56 
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Joined: 12/03/14
Posts: 19252
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
The P180 (mine at least) struggled to get to 400

The SII may not be a whole lot better in this regard. While it has a ceiling of FL430, the aircraft weight of 15,000 lbs with 2500 lbf engines is marginal power for climb.

AT FL410, ISA, 15000 lbs, only doing 161 FPM climb. 14000 lbs improves this to 305 FPM. Climb speeds at ~140 KIAS (~280 KTAS), so pretty slow, too.

At ISA+10, you have to stop at FL390 for a step climb, drop weight down to about 14100 lbs, then you can reach FL410.

The last bit of climb to reach top altitude in low power jets can be pretty lame. Keeping weight down helps, but that's primarily fuel you left behind.

If you had the FJ44 engines, it would be very different. FL430 direct climb, no steps, in ISA+10 easily and quickly.

Mike C.

_________________
Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2022, 00:09 
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Joined: 12/25/12
Posts: 3711
Post Likes: +3661
Location: KRHV San Jose, CA
Aircraft: A36, R44, C525
Username Protected wrote:
The P180 (mine at least) struggled to get to 400

The SII may not be a whole lot better in this regard. While it has a ceiling of FL430, the aircraft weight of 15,000 lbs with 2500 lbf engines is marginal power for climb.

AT FL410, ISA, 15000 lbs, only doing 161 FPM climb. 14000 lbs improves this to 305 FPM. Climb speeds at ~140 KIAS (~280 KTAS), so pretty slow, too.

At ISA+10, you have to stop at FL390 for a step climb, drop weight down to about 14100 lbs, then you can reach FL410.

The last bit of climb to reach top altitude in low power jets can be pretty lame. Keeping weight down helps, but that's primarily fuel you left behind.

If you had the FJ44 engines, it would be very different. FL430 direct climb, no steps, in ISA+10 easily and quickly.

Mike C.




Yes but it’s a Jet. Until something else comes along, it still feels nice going broke at FL400.
_________________
Rocky Hill

Altitude is Everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2022, 00:20 
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Posts: 19252
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Company: Ciholas, Inc
Location: KEHR
Aircraft: C560V
Username Protected wrote:
Yes but it’s a Jet. Until something else comes along, it still feels nice going broke at FL400.

That happens at field elevation paying the fuel bill.

At FL400, it's beautiful and relaxing being miles above the planet.

Mike C.

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Email mikec (at) ciholas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2022, 06:36 
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Joined: 03/03/11
Posts: 1845
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Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
I was at FL380 and ISA +20 yesterday. Full power I could run about 340 tas. What would a Citation S II do at that temp? I have to think they get hammered in temps like that.

In Piaggio, I find temps above ISA +15 really start slowing it down. Seems odd that a low bypass small jet wouldn’t be hurt as well.

Sii citation was high on my list when I bought Piaggio. Seemed most of them ended up being range/payload limited. One I looked at, If you put full fuel, you couldn’t carry anything other than two people up front.

I also had issue with getting w&b to work with just me in the plane and a lot of fuel (majority of my flights). If panel had been redone you needed a lot of ballast (300lbs IIRC).

That said, super cool planes especially for the money. I think a big citation advantage is parts and fleet size. You can be anywhere and get it fixed. That is nice piece of mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2022, 08:30 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 396
Post Likes: +768
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
Username Protected wrote:
The P180 (mine at least) struggled to get to 400

The SII may not be a whole lot better in this regard. While it has a ceiling of FL430, the aircraft weight of 15,000 lbs with 2500 lbf engines is marginal power for climb.

AT FL410, ISA, 15000 lbs, only doing 161 FPM climb. 14000 lbs improves this to 305 FPM. Climb speeds at ~140 KIAS (~280 KTAS), so pretty slow, too.

At ISA+10, you have to stop at FL390 for a step climb, drop weight down to about 14100 lbs, then you can reach FL410.

The last bit of climb to reach top altitude in low power jets can be pretty lame. Keeping weight down helps, but that's primarily fuel you left behind.

If you had the FJ44 engines, it would be very different. FL430 direct climb, no steps, in ISA+10 easily and quickly.

Mike C.


Mike, FJ44 requires engine mafia, no thanks.

My bread and butter flights are Dallas to Key West, Bahamas and Los Angeles. These don’t require full fuel, and I generally go 75% of the time with three people that weight 450 lbs total. Rest of the time alone. I’ve done the math too, I am around 14,600 lbs with 5k fuel load. Tons of fuel even tankering a little into pricey Key West for savings. The airplane will go straight to 410 assuming 700 lbs burn to get there so no issue there. Speed is 365 knots at that altitude. The fallacy in your argument is that is dooesnt pertain to my situation I.e. 4 smaller size people, and 700 lbs less fuel. Plus my superior flying skills to you.



(you know I’m kidding) :lol: :lol:

It IS nice to be able to occasionally load up my wife,16 year old son and bags in Dallas and literally be able to go non stop to anywhere in the Continental US even with headwinds up to 80 knots. With reserves. Heck the airplane will do St Thomas USVI where I have a boat non stop from Dallas most days.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2022, 11:15 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
I was at FL380 and ISA +20 yesterday. Full power I could run about 340 tas. What would a Citation S II do at that temp? I have to think they get hammered in temps like that.

In Piaggio, I find temps above ISA +15 really start slowing it down. Seems odd that a low bypass small jet wouldn’t be hurt as well.

Sii citation was high on my list when I bought Piaggio. Seemed most of them ended up being range/payload limited. One I looked at, If you put full fuel, you couldn’t carry anything other than two people up front.

I also had issue with getting w&b to work with just me in the plane and a lot of fuel (majority of my flights). If panel had been redone you needed a lot of ballast (300lbs IIRC).

That said, super cool planes especially for the money. I think a big citation advantage is parts and fleet size. You can be anywhere and get it fixed. That is nice piece of mind.


I fly an fj44 501 Eagle II.
Flew early this morning NY-CHICAGO. FL430 ISA+17. 335KTAS on 645pph total. MGW t/o 12,500lbs


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2022, 09:49 
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Joined: 08/05/08
Posts: 287
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Location: Raleigh NC
Aircraft: CJ1, T210, J3
Curious what the cabin is at fl430.

Did the Sierra mod increase ceiling from 410 to 430?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2022, 11:33 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 396
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Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
No ceiling of the airplane from the manufacturer was 430. Just have to be light to get there with the standard engines.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2022, 13:52 
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Joined: 03/14/15
Posts: 218
Post Likes: +175
Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
Username Protected wrote:
I was at FL380 and ISA +20 yesterday. Full power I could run about 340 tas. What would a Citation S II do at that temp? I have to think they get hammered in temps like that.

In Piaggio, I find temps above ISA +15 really start slowing it down. Seems odd that a low bypass small jet wouldn’t be hurt as well.

Sii citation was high on my list when I bought Piaggio. Seemed most of them ended up being range/payload limited. One I looked at, If you put full fuel, you couldn’t carry anything other than two people up front.

I also had issue with getting w&b to work with just me in the plane and a lot of fuel (majority of my flights). If panel had been redone you needed a lot of ballast (300lbs IIRC).

That said, super cool planes especially for the money. I think a big citation advantage is parts and fleet size. You can be anywhere and get it fixed. That is nice piece of mind.



We run our S2 at FL360 and FL370 most of the time, that seems to be it's happy spot for fuel burn / speed. If you're heavy and / or it's warm you won't want to climb above FL370 til you burn off a little fuel. Ours is about 390 KTAS average up there.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2022, 21:44 
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Joined: 04/24/18
Posts: 727
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Location: NYC
Aircraft: ISP Eagle II SR22 g2
Username Protected wrote:
Curious what the cabin is at fl430.

Did the Sierra mod increase ceiling from 410 to 430?


501 ceiling is 410. At mgw it takes well over an hour to get there. On the eagle II and stallion, Sierra increased the ceiling to 430. It can go straight up there at max gross.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2022, 23:20 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 396
Post Likes: +768
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
Username Protected wrote:
I was at FL380 and ISA +20 yesterday. Full power I could run about 340 tas. What would a Citation S II do at that temp? I have to think they get hammered in temps like that.

In Piaggio, I find temps above ISA +15 really start slowing it down. Seems odd that a low bypass small jet wouldn’t be hurt as well.

Sii citation was high on my list when I bought Piaggio. Seemed most of them ended up being range/payload limited. One I looked at, If you put full fuel, you couldn’t carry anything other than two people up front.

I also had issue with getting w&b to work with just me in the plane and a lot of fuel (majority of my flights). If panel had been redone you needed a lot of ballast (300lbs IIRC).

That said, super cool planes especially for the money. I think a big citation advantage is parts and fleet size. You can be anywhere and get it fixed. That is nice piece of mind.



We run our S2 at FL360 and FL370 most of the time, that seems to be it's happy spot for fuel burn / speed. If you're heavy and / or it's warm you won't want to climb above FL370 til you burn off a little fuel. Ours is about 390 KTAS average up there.


Typically what weight do you want to be at to go to 410? 14000? 13500?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2022, 18:54 
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Posts: 218
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Aircraft: Piper Cheyenne II
I don't recall off the top of my head, we have a reference card in the cockpit that comes out of the AFM that tabulates the recommended weight & altitude.... seems to work reasonably well. I'll try to get a peak at it and pass it along.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2022, 18:29 
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Joined: 01/12/10
Posts: 396
Post Likes: +768
Location: Dallas, Texas
Aircraft: Piaggio P180, TTx
Aircraft is at PWK undergoing its Hots now by Standard Aero. Since I am not Typed in the S550 series I will need a ferry pilot as well as a delivery/acceptance inspection company. Any suggestions here on who might be available?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation S2
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2022, 18:54 
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Joined: 01/02/12
Posts: 333
Post Likes: +100
Username Protected wrote:
Congratulations! You'll love the Jettech panel and your SII; I have an entire parts SII behind my hangar with absolutely nothing advertised so if you need any weird pumps or TKS panels, brakes, avionics or gauges, I have them. Pay for the options to refinish all the EL panels; makes a huge difference on the panel upgrade. I've done both black and gray and the black looks stunning. I'm glad you were able to work something out with STEC, that's a huge service to the Citation community you are doing so thank you! Hopefully, that will trickle down to the other models.



Will the STEC help “unlock” the Primus equipped aircraft and allow replacing the avionics with Garmin?


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