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09 Aug 2020, 14:18 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 31 May 2020, 19:28 
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GAME CHANGER

I insist that someone needs to make a decently priced 300 hp turbine.

My only question is if this is from the same Continental that can’t figure out how to manufacture cylinders that last to TBO.


Might be more of a market for a 200 hp turbine.


Couldn’t disagree more... you can derate a 300 for 200 but can’t really go the other way.

300 hp seems to be the magic number for small single engine ops that want performance, and could be a good replacement on twin engines, if 300 is too much for twins and single engine trainers, derate.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 31 May 2020, 21:58 
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Couldn’t disagree more... you can derate a 300 for 200 but can’t really go the other way.

300 hp seems to be the magic number for small single engine ops that want performance, and could be a good replacement on twin engines, if 300 is too much for twins and single engine trainers, derate.

There’s no such thing as too much horsepower. ;)

The trouble with turbines is they are stupidly thirsty. For normal bugsmashing a piston engine is much more economical.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 31 May 2020, 22:16 
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Username Protected wrote:
Couldn’t disagree more... you can derate a 300 for 200 but can’t really go the other way.

300 hp seems to be the magic number for small single engine ops that want performance, and could be a good replacement on twin engines, if 300 is too much for twins and single engine trainers, derate.

There’s no such thing as too much horsepower. ;)

The trouble with turbines is they are stupidly thirsty. For normal bugsmashing a piston engine is much more economical.


Exactly.

Horespower: where too much is just almost enough.
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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 11:28 
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While I haven’t flown the P2010, it’s little brother the P2008 is the nicest handling aircraft I’ve ever flown.

I also agree that this will be a flop in the U.S. PBS has a 241 horsepower turboprop but it’s not certified and drinks heavy. Once Rotax comes out with a 250+ horsepower engine that should be a game changer.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 11:52 
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Does the GA world really need a 170hp diesel, piston engine?

to me, the advantage of that engine would be as a diesel supercub that has twice the range, or converts half the fuel load to payload, vs its lycoming avgas-powered equivalent. Of course that only works if the new engine is the same wet weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 13:31 
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Does the GA world really need a 170hp diesel, piston engine?

to me, the advantage of that engine would be as a diesel supercub that has twice the range, or converts half the fuel load to payload, vs its lycoming avgas-powered equivalent. Of course that only works if the new engine is the same wet weight.


The CD170 weighs 344 pounds dry.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 15:23 
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dry weights don't mean much when comparing liquid cooled to air cooled engines. They leave off not just the water but usually the entire cooling system.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 16:05 
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There is no way I would buy an engine or airplane with one that had to be replaced at some arbitrary time in service. I run my engines past TBO and I don’t give them back to Continental (who’s quality control I don’t trust) when they need to be overhauled.

This is likely a method to control sales and revenue. As to rebuilds, my guess is that the cylinders do not have replaceable liners, which means that they could be bored and sleeved if necessary but if that is not approved then the block is tossed when the bores exceed spec.

I don’t see any way a normal US flight school would take this engine on a training or rental plane.


Exactly. I cannot see a favorable amortization schedule for an engine replacement requirement at 1200 hours for any sort of training environment. It would seem to drive the hourly cost much too high for not much (if any) of a measurable gain.

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2020, 17:27 
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capital cost matters too. What does at diesel, vs turbine vs avgas 300HP engine cost.

For many people the engine capital cost is significant. (I say having just replaced an IO520)


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 02 Jun 2020, 11:17 
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https://www.turb.aero/

200 Hp turbine, got to go to Australia for proof of concept.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2020, 17:49 
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https://www.turb.aero/

200 Hp turbine, got to go to Australia for proof of concept.

Not bad. If their figures work out you're looking at a 200 hp (sea level) engine that burns around 13.5 gph at cruise at 10,000 feet. That cruise power is about the same as an IO-520 at 65%, but with turbine reliability and burning less expensive (and lead free) Jet-A. As a replacement for something like an IO-360 it'd really kick some butt. I'd buy one (if I had something to put it in.)

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2020, 21:31 
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https://www.turb.aero/

200 Hp turbine, got to go to Australia for proof of concept.

Not bad. If their figures work out you're looking at a 200 hp (sea level) engine that burns around 13.5 gph at cruise at 10,000 feet. That cruise power is about the same as an IO-520 at 65%, but with turbine reliability and burning less expensive (and lead free) Jet-A. As a replacement for something like an IO-360 it'd really kick some butt. I'd buy one (if I had something to put it in.)


What does it burn down at sea level though! Turbines can be really thirsty down low.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 03 Jun 2020, 22:33 
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What does it burn down at sea level though! Turbines can be really thirsty down low.

They don’t say. It would have to burn more than the price difference between Avgas and Jet-A to make it a lesser choice. I agree that it’s not well suited to a 172 or similar, but I don’t think that was their target market.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2020, 02:24 
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If their figures work out


It probably won't.

I don't mean to be negative, but the industry has been making gas turbine engines of all sizes and descriptions for 70 years, but has somehow failed to make low power gas turbines with attractive fuel specifics.

In real life, they have mostly been on the order .9lbs/hp/hr.

Regenerator (aka recuperator) equipped turbines might be substantially better. But of course, heavier, more complex and more costly. For many reasons, they haven't hit the market, though they have been developed over the years.

Small turbines suffer from a lot of things, beginning with the physical challenges of moving air through small spaces. It works better in large turbine engines, where the spaces and parts are bigger and the RPM much lower.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam's new Jet-A powered P2010 TDI single
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2020, 20:47 
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I think this also somewhat begs the question of why avegas engines aren't better.

An spark ignition engine that ran on auto gas, with electronic mixture, ignition, turbocharger should be pretty good. I know there have been a lot of failed attempts to use automobile engines in aircraft, but no more than there have been failed attempts at diesles and small turbines.

The other approach is a modern version of a standard aircraft engine - with the sort of automated assembly that makes auto engines very reliable.

Of course I guess the market is just too small


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