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 Post subject: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 hrs
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2020, 15:13 
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Joined: 02/17/12
Posts: 57
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Location: Ohio & Germany
Aircraft: 1982 P210N TN550
On my Cessna P210N I have a life limit for all cabin windows and the windshield of 13,000 hrs.
As far as I know the Piper PA46 life limits are as stated above...

In general, are the life limits in Genearl Aviation total fix, i.e. do you have to scrap & replace the affected part, which would be much more easy in case of my P210N windows/windshield (assuming that you can buy them with the aircraft out of production since the 80's - hope for good luck :-) compared to the PA46 fuselage or wings? Or is there a common practice of extending the life limits after some testing (NDT, etc.?).

Are the Life Limits mentioned above true for all PA46 versions so far produced (-310; -350; -500; -600)?

Thanks so much in advance for your inputs!

B rgds and stay safe in these difficult times!


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2020, 16:00 
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Joined: 01/30/09
Posts: 3343
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Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
Life limits are cast in stone. When that component accumulates hours/years/cycles, it instantly becomes a paperweight. If a used part gets installed on another aircraft, the hours carry over and must be tracked for that component.

Life limits are absolute for all operations, pt91, pt135, pt121.

Life limits are sometimes increased after experience is gained. It can happen. I would presume that it is possible under STC, but that is probably a difficult hill to climb and would require a lot of engineering to gain approval. The presumption goes to the original engineering owned by the type-certificate holder.

Old CAR3 certification light aircraft don't usually have life limits.

Newer aircraft under pt23 will have life limits. The Cirrus SR22 has an airframe life limit of 12,500 hours. (to my best recollection). My Columbia 400 has a 25,000 hour airframe life limit. Various components in my plane, like the seatbelts, have a 10 year life limit. My main batteries have a mandatory 4-year replacement interval, period.

Whether the component requires total replacement, or can be overhauled depends on the language in the life limitation. My seatbelts could not be re-webbed, as the limitations section was written and worded so that replacement was mandatory.


Last edited on 18 Apr 2020, 01:31, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2020, 16:32 
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Joined: 02/17/12
Posts: 57
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Location: Ohio & Germany
Aircraft: 1982 P210N TN550
Thanks Larry! I was hoping the LL is somewhat different from commercial aviation, like engine compressor / turbine disc's that have to be scrapped after the LL was reached (often before, because it was not feasable to re-install them with a limit smaller than the expected next disassy). 10,145 hrs for the PA46 fuselage sounds very low compared to your your 25,000 hrs limit or to no fuselage limit on my P210N!!! I was hoping there are already some LL extentions, but maybe that is much to early...


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 17 Apr 2020, 16:44 
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Joined: 02/17/12
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Location: Ohio & Germany
Aircraft: 1982 P210N TN550
SR22 with 12,500 hrs LL on the fuselage is not really "much" compared to 70s and 80s all metal fuselage designs...
One should get more out of an ultra modern composite design ... on the other hand if you fly 120 hrs a year you could do it for 100 years :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2020, 02:08 
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Joined: 01/30/09
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Location: $ilicon Vall€y
Aircraft: Columbia 400
Another airplane with notable life limitations is the Piper PA-38 Tomahawk. The wings are limited to 11,000 hours. There is an STC to increase the life to as much as 18,000 hours.

So it isn't impossible.

It is unusual for an owner-flown piston single to accumulate a lot of hours. Most Cirrus won't come close to their life-limit hours before being retired for other reasons.

But flight-school trainers, like the PA38, can accumulate a lot of hours in a few years.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2020, 09:36 
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Joined: 08/16/15
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Location: Ogden UT
Aircraft: Piper M600
Airplanes often have life limits on parts, which is arbitrarily limited by the amount of structural testing that they can do prior to certification. As aircraft in the fleet get to those life limits, the OEM can choose to extend those life limits depending on real world and other structural testing. If I recall, the Cirrus initially had a very short life limit on the airframe, but Cirrus extended that before aircraft started approaching those limits. I only knew of one PA 46 that hit the life limit, if I recall it was a photo-mission bird, and they just stopped pressurizing it, running it unpressurized. I haven’t seen that bird at the airport recently, not sure if it was scrapped or has a home somewhere else.

_________________
Chuck Ivester
Piper M600
Ogden UT


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 18 Apr 2020, 21:58 
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Joined: 06/29/15
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Location: PDK- Atlanta, GA
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If it’s in Chapter 4 of your maintenance manual with airworthiness limitations, I believe you are stuck. Elsewhere in terms of life of engines and other parts, it’s at the discretion of the mechanic/owner and condition

Though unlikely to make financial sense, I believe there are a few aircraft that don’t have the manufacturer’s parts/procedures to replace/extend the life limited part even though allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Piper PA46 Fuselage/Wing assy LifeLimit: 10,145/15,580 h
PostPosted: 19 Apr 2020, 08:24 
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Joined: 02/17/12
Posts: 57
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Location: Ohio & Germany
Aircraft: 1982 P210N TN550
Many years ago I "fell in love" with the idea to move up from my Cessna C182Q to a PA46-310P with the TSIO550 STC engine, which fell trough due to very high insurance requirements (1,000+ flight hours, etc.). So I moved up from my 182 to the P210N. But from that time I still have quite some documents, that I researched at that time... including an EASA Type-Certificate Data Sheet for Piper Model PA-46 (310P/350P/500TP). The LL for the 310P&350P are the same fuselage/wing 10,145/15,580 but for the 500TP they are 10,145/13,349 hrs, I guess as the fuselage is the same, but the 500TP has a different wing (structure/shape and holds a little more fuel, 173G vs 122G +20=142 w/STC). For the 600TP the wing is different again (structural integrated radar pod & now 260G usable), not sure what the LL's are for the 600TP, but most probably the fuselage LL is still the same... Maybe Charles can help with that info?

But really interesting to know that sometimes there might be STC's or OEM decisions / actions for increasing the LL's!
Thanks for sharing these insights!

B rgds


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