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09 Aug 2020, 13:01 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 14:47 
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What kind of range can you get on a winglet'd (?) M2? Tamarack's website conveniently left out the chart comparison for the M2.

Also, is the runway length on a winglet'd CJ/CJ1 significantly less than stock?


Last edited on 09 Apr 2020, 15:07, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 14:55 
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Username Protected wrote:
As for the winglets, my jury is still out. Plus they will cost me a lot more than approx 200k to install them on my CJ, I will have to build a new 400k hangar to fit the new wider wingspan in. :doh: The blinglets on the M2 was marketing trying to make the CJ look newer and more appealing. Not sure they do much, if anything?


Hi Brent,

I’ve flown a bunch of CJs and can tell u the winglets help.

I did a flight a few weeks back Auckland, New Zealand back to Gold Coast, Queensland in 4 hours. Was at MTOW out of AKL with 4 POB, landed with 700 lbs. average head wind of 10kts, 1210 NM.

Andrew


Just to confirm, I assume you were full fuel? Sorry, I don't know the useful load and if 4 POB and MTOW would imply less than full fuel. I'm thinking with the additional 400#s of MTOW afforded by the winglets you were able to be full fuel....

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 15:22 
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Aircraft: C525A
I have the old Universal FMS and PL-21 in the CJ2. I also have a GTN750 & 650.

I really don't mind the older gear. It didn't take long to learn and it works well. I know the M2 has a lot of little things that the CJ doesn't but (to me) the G3000 is the only big thing.

What is the price delta between the CJ and the M2?

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Phoenix, AZ


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 15:31 
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Joined: 09/11/12
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Location: Chicago, IL (KGYY)
Aircraft: Piper M600
$500k to almost $1mm, depending on comparative model years of the 1+ and the M2.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 16:07 
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Location: Brisbane QLD Australia
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Username Protected wrote:
Just to confirm, I assume you were full fuel? Sorry, I don't know the useful load and if 4 POB and MTOW would imply less than full fuel. I'm thinking with the additional 400#s of MTOW afforded by the winglets you were able to be full fuel....


Hi Carl,

I did have full fuel -3220lbs.

The 400lbs isn’t a MTOW addition, it’s a zero fuel weight increase. This is very beneficial in the CJ2. Ive done a few trips with 8 POB and the increase has allowed me to do the flights.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 16:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I have the old Universal FMS and PL-21 in the CJ2. I also have a GTN750 & 650.

I really don't mind the older gear. It didn't take long to learn and it works well. I know the M2 has a lot of little things that the CJ doesn't but (to me) the G3000 is the only big thing.

What is the price delta between the CJ and the M2?


The UN1 is a great piece of equipment. My belief is better the the Garmin. I think if you know how to use the UNS u can use Garmin easy, but it’s not as simple in reverse. Just my thought.

The delta between a CJ and an M2 is about $2M.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 16:13 
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Aircraft: CJ525, Husky Amphib
Andrew[/quote]

Just to confirm, I assume you were full fuel? Sorry, I don't know the useful load and if 4 POB and MTOW would imply less than full fuel. I'm thinking with the additional 400#s of MTOW afforded by the winglets you were able to be full fuel....[/quote]



It's not a 400# gross weight increase. It's a 400# increase in zero fuel weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 16:13 
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Username Protected wrote:
What kind of range can you get on a winglet'd (?) M2? Tamarack's website conveniently left out the chart comparison for the M2.


There is not a big advantage in adding the winglets to an M2 as the FJ44s have higher thrust and efficiency so they can hold it higher. It would be a few percent gain.

I don’t think anyone outs them on so Tamarack doesn’t provide any data as they aren’t a customer.

I get the same range as an M2 now with them - I just take a few minutes longer to do it..

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 16:27 
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Andrew, I thought an m2 can do 1400nm? Can you do that in the Cj with tips? Flight you posted before, looks like reserve would have been skinny if you drug it out another 200nm, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 18:10 
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Username Protected wrote:
Andrew, I thought an m2 can do 1400nm? Can you do that in the Cj with tips? Flight you posted before, looks like reserve would have been skinny if you drug it out another 200nm, no?


No an M2 can’t do 1400 easily (well not the one I fly), more 1300, that’s marketing from Textron. I can do the same as an M2 now. This trip started out with a 48kt head wind BTW but dropped off. So I’ve assumed about 10kts, was probably more then that.

30mins reserve is 300 lbs in the CJ so 700 is in 70 mins of fuel. I had to fly the full arrival procedure and didnt do that efficiently so I could have kept the speed back and probably landed with another 100 lbs.

I was also able to comply with all ETP situations crossing the Tasman to. Without winglets I could not have done this trip.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 21:41 
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That’s really cool the winglets unlock that performance. Thanks for posting your real world numbers!


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 10 Apr 2020, 09:50 
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Aircraft: C310R B55 C510 C525
Real world down low the M2 burns at least 800lbs/hr, we aim to land with 800lbs, 700lbs severe clear familiar airport. Same with CJ. Ideally more. A go around will easily eat up 200lbs.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2020, 10:25 
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Is the potty seat in a 525 a legal seat with a seatbelt? It seems some advertisements say six pax and some say five...? Can they be retrofitted to be a legal seat?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2020, 11:39 
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Company: The Saint Hotels
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Username Protected wrote:
What the M2 is;

A CJ1+ with winglets and a G3000

What the M2 isn't;

A CJ1+ with winglets and a G3000

Not a typo, this is how I really look at the airplane. It's a 525, which is great in every way. It is a well known, proven airframe. The type is the same as over 2000 other Citation airframes and this made certification a breeze and simplifies everything from maintenance to training / transition.

At first glace it really is a spruced up CJ1+, don't get me wrong the CJ1+ is a great airplane, but the M2 is better... in just about every way. I don't want to invest the time in comparing the two airplanes because that has been done and the articles are numerous.

I'm more interested in talking about the airplane and getting real world input from the guys who own and or fly them. It's the little things that make the difference... it's spending some time in the M2 and realizing that the interior really is redesigned and it is awesome. It's forgetting what it's like to mess around with the pressurization system of whatever it was you use to fly.

What is it you like about the M2? Dislike?


I got typed in the M2 in March before I walked out on the deal. It is a CJ1+ through and through, but with some nice refinements

G3000 plus winglets that don't do anything aerodynamically (hence the name "blinglets"- thats it.

Electrical system? The same
Hydraulic system? The same
Internal Cabin room smaller than a Mustang between club seats? The same
Antiquated Bleed Air Windshield? The same
Pressurization and AC systeM? The same (except for the input method, wow.)
Fuel System? The same
Baggage area? The same
Complete lack of room in the cockpit? The same (or maybe just a tad worse)

Its flies very nice. It has awesome avionics. Its very pretty.

But it is what it is. A warmed over CJ1+ with a G3000.

Go fly one and see if you like the cockpit seating position if you are over 6' tall then get back with me.

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Play naughty, Sleep Saintly!


Last edited on 05 Jun 2020, 11:50, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2020, 11:44 
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Username Protected wrote:
Got around 700 hours in M2s. Also flown the 3 and 3+; at my old job we demoed the Phenom 300E and HondaJet Elite. Oh, and once in a while I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Overall, the M2 is top of the light jet heap. Embraer had to get to the Phenom 100EV to approach the performance of the M2, and Honda had to do the same with the Elite. That said, under the skin of G3000 and “blinglets” it’s very much an early 90’s airplane. Which frustrates me to no end. Cessna did a fantastic job with the airframe but the systems haven’t kept up.

Honda is miles ahead from a human factors perspective in cockpit design. They’ve also integrated systems a lot better with the G3000. But, their interior makes me want an AcuraJet and their steer-by-wire is definitely an acquired taste.

Embraer’s got a beautiful interior...behind the pilot seats. Even less legroom than in the M2 cockpit (although the scalloped beverage center helps on the pilot side and it’s funny how the AFM shelf can go missing from the copilot side). And while they’ve done a good job with systems integration their G3000 software was even behind Cessna when I flew the P300E. It didn’t even have onboard TOLD.

I’ve heard the latest M2s finally have the most recent G3000 hardware and support ADS-B in, domestic CPDLC, and Flight Stream. Now Cessna just needs to get a control lock that’s usable (like the Caravan), an O2 shut off valve (like the Mustang), an electric windshield (like the Mustang), systems integration with the G3000 instead of a slapdash job with touchscreen representations of early 90s interfaces, and approval to go to FL450 like the rest of the bigger CJs. Oh, and to scrap most of their training and start over. The fun of a common type rating is having grizzled CJ instructors who have no practical G3000 experience and dislike it because of lack of knowledge. Frankly, I’m happy that insurance is finally recognizing that flying a PL21 aircraft isn’t the same. The G3000 is a fantastic platform hampered by terrible training and pilots who dismiss Garmin as “easy” or “not a FMS”.

So...Tl;dr the M2’s a great plane but frustrates me because if Cessna went all-in on a refresh it could be dominant in the light jet market.


I couldn't have said it better myself. BTW the HondaJet will blow right by the M2 in cruise. AND go to FL430. AND has TWICE the luggage compartment

Crosswind landings through,,eeeew,, HDJT sucks.

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