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09 Aug 2020, 12:57 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


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 Post subject: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 14:57 
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Well... a CJ3+ is better, but that's nearly twice the money and a different thread!

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 15:07 
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What the M2 is;

A CJ1+ with winglets and a G3000

What the M2 isn't;

A CJ1+ with winglets and a G3000

Not a typo, this is how I really look at the airplane. It's a 525, which is great in every way. It is a well known, proven airframe. The type is the same as over 2000 other Citation airframes and this made certification a breeze and simplifies everything from maintenance to training / transition.

At first glace it really is a spruced up CJ1+, don't get me wrong the CJ1+ is a great airplane, but the M2 is better... in just about every way. I don't want to invest the time in comparing the two airplanes because that has been done and the articles are numerous.

I'm more interested in talking about the airplane and getting real world input from the guys who own and or fly them. It's the little things that make the difference... it's spending some time in the M2 and realizing that the interior really is redesigned and it is awesome. It's forgetting what it's like to mess around with the pressurization system of whatever it was you use to fly.

What is it you like about the M2? Dislike?

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 17:03 
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My client went with the HondaJet instead, I think primarily he felt like the Honda was quieter and a bit more modern looking. I haven't flown the M2 but it looks nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 18:04 
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Thanks for starting the threat, Chip - I would love to fly an M2 - in any seat. Have flown right seat and in the back of a HDJT and really liked it. I think those two airplanes are direct, solid competitors and one pilot told me that the M2 is more of a pilot’s airplane, while the HDJT is more of a passenger’s airplane. Certainly the HDJT cabin is quiet, spacious with a great externally serviceable lav. The new HDJT Elite has a 1440-nm range compared to the 1500+ max for the M2, so they are much closer in that department than with the original HDJT.

I am a big fan of the G3000 and love having it in my Piper M600 so I see it’s utility every day that I fly, even having the original G3000 version (they have an NXi flavor of it now that’s in the new M2s and the HDJT elites). Query: what’s the verdict on the Tamarack mod for the M2? Very popular for the older 525s but haven’t seen much if anything re the M2.

Tough choice between the two - although based on other posts, it’s a tough market for owner-pilots to get insurance on either airframe at this time vs. a Mustang, for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 18:44 
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Thanks for starting the threat, Chip - I would love to fly an M2 - in any seat. Have flown right seat and in the back of a HDJT and really liked it. I think those two airplanes are direct, solid competitors and one pilot told me that the M2 is more of a pilot’s airplane, while the HDJT is more of a passenger’s airplane. Certainly the HDJT cabin is quiet, spacious with a great externally serviceable lav. The new HDJT Elite has a 1440-nm range compared to the 1500+ max for the M2, so they are much closer in that department than with the original HDJT.

I am a big fan of the G3000 and love having it in my Piper M600 so I see it’s utility every day that I fly, even having the original G3000 version (they have an NXi flavor of it now that’s in the new M2s and the HDJT elites). Query: what’s the verdict on the Tamarack mod for the M2? Very popular for the older 525s but haven’t seen much if anything re the M2.

Tough choice between the two - although based on other posts, it’s a tough market for owner-pilots to get insurance on either airframe at this time vs. a Mustang, for example.


You bet! I love talking airplanes!

I am not very familiar with the Honda Jet but I do see that they would be competitors and I'm betting the pilot vs passenger assessment is dead on.

I haven't heard much about the Tamaracks on the M2, it seems like it would be less desirable because you already have "winglets" even though the Tamarack winglets are cooler!

Yes, insurance is a challenge on the M2 as compared to the Mustang, that $2M plus hull value seems to be a real issue. We even had an issue recently that our main test / demo pilot couldn't get on the insurance for an M2 we were buying because he didn't have M2 time... 525 pilot, flies everything up to the CJ4 AND flies the Beechjet with G5000 in it, but since he didn't have time behind the G3000 they wouldn't allow it.

I encourage our clients not to get discouraged about insurance, yes that first year will be expensive, you may have more mentor time than you like, but after you have "arrived" and have some time in the airplane you'll have more options. Anyone who says they know the future of aviation insurance is lying, but based on today's standards it does get better in year 2 and year 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 20:06 
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For that size jet, I really like the hot wing.

Not fond of what I think the maintenance costs of those engines will be. I would never fly it enough be on a program. Which sounds like the only prudent thing to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 07 Apr 2020, 21:50 
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Company: Gateway Jets
Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: C310R B55 C510 C525
My company Gateway Jets (me) manages a CJ, M2, Mustang, TBM, E90. The 2016 M2 has been very trouble free. We've been chasing an oxygen and nitrogen leak for a bit and we've had some misc cosmetic furnishing issues but been mechanically sound. Doc 10 was painless. Rides the barber pole in most conditions. Aside from nitpicking a few minor items the owner and pilots couldn't be happier. Some of the essential items are all in the G3000 which requires some button pushing where a regular switch or know would be nice such as a temperature control.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 02:09 
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Username Protected wrote:
I'm more interested in talking about the airplane and getting real world input from the guys who own and or fly them. It's the little things that make the difference... it's spending some time in the M2 and realizing that the interior really is redesigned and it is awesome. It's forgetting what it's like to mess around with the pressurization system of whatever it was you use to fly


Fly a straight CJ with winglets and an M2.

M2 is newer, better avionics and nicer interior.

CJ is older, worse avionics but the GTNs help modernise.

They have the same mission essentially when it comes to range. Both have the same issue with way too much filler and cracks in paint and revits popping.

If you have the extra $2M to spend go the M2 every day of the week.

If it was me buying, owning a CJ now I’d go to the 3.

But I’m not buying...

Textron do a good product.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 09:35 
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Location: Des Moines, IA
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Got around 700 hours in M2s. Also flown the 3 and 3+; at my old job we demoed the Phenom 300E and HondaJet Elite. Oh, and once in a while I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Overall, the M2 is top of the light jet heap. Embraer had to get to the Phenom 100EV to approach the performance of the M2, and Honda had to do the same with the Elite. That said, under the skin of G3000 and “blinglets” it’s very much an early 90’s airplane. Which frustrates me to no end. Cessna did a fantastic job with the airframe but the systems haven’t kept up.

Honda is miles ahead from a human factors perspective in cockpit design. They’ve also integrated systems a lot better with the G3000. But, their interior makes me want an AcuraJet and their steer-by-wire is definitely an acquired taste.

Embraer’s got a beautiful interior...behind the pilot seats. Even less legroom than in the M2 cockpit (although the scalloped beverage center helps on the pilot side and it’s funny how the AFM shelf can go missing from the copilot side). And while they’ve done a good job with systems integration their G3000 software was even behind Cessna when I flew the P300E. It didn’t even have onboard TOLD.

I’ve heard the latest M2s finally have the most recent G3000 hardware and support ADS-B in, domestic CPDLC, and Flight Stream. Now Cessna just needs to get a control lock that’s usable (like the Caravan), an O2 shut off valve (like the Mustang), an electric windshield (like the Mustang), systems integration with the G3000 instead of a slapdash job with touchscreen representations of early 90s interfaces, and approval to go to FL450 like the rest of the bigger CJs. Oh, and to scrap most of their training and start over. The fun of a common type rating is having grizzled CJ instructors who have no practical G3000 experience and dislike it because of lack of knowledge. Frankly, I’m happy that insurance is finally recognizing that flying a PL21 aircraft isn’t the same. The G3000 is a fantastic platform hampered by terrible training and pilots who dismiss Garmin as “easy” or “not a FMS”.

So...Tl;dr the M2’s a great plane but frustrates me because if Cessna went all-in on a refresh it could be dominant in the light jet market.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 09:39 
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Got around 700 hours in M2s. Also flown the 3 and 3+; at my old job we demoed the Phenom 300E and HondaJet Elite. Oh, and once in a while I stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

Overall, the M2 is top of the light jet heap. Embraer had to get to the Phenom 100EV to approach the performance of the M2, and Honda had to do the same with the Elite. That said, under the skin of G3000 and “blinglets” it’s very much an early 90’s airplane. Which frustrates me to no end. Cessna did a fantastic job with the airframe but the systems haven’t kept up.

Honda is miles ahead from a human factors perspective in cockpit design. They’ve also integrated systems a lot better with the G3000. But, their interior makes me want an AcuraJet and their steer-by-wire is definitely an acquired taste.

Embraer’s got a beautiful interior...behind the pilot seats. Even less legroom than in the M2 cockpit (although the scalloped beverage center helps on the pilot side and it’s funny how the AFM shelf can go missing from the copilot side). And while they’ve done a good job with systems integration their G3000 software was even behind Cessna when I flew the P300E. It didn’t even have onboard TOLD.


Excellent information!!!

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Last edited on 08 Apr 2020, 09:52, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 09:43 
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I’ve heard the latest M2s finally have the most recent G3000 hardware and support ADS-B in, domestic CPDLC, and Flight Stream. Now Cessna just needs to get a control lock that’s usable (like the Caravan), an O2 shut off valve (like the Mustang), an electric windshield (like the Mustang), systems integration with the G3000 instead of a slapdash job with touchscreen representations of early 90s interfaces, and approval to go to FL450 like the rest of the bigger CJs. Oh, and to scrap most of their training and start over. The fun of a common type rating is having grizzled CJ instructors who have no practical G3000 experience and dislike it because of lack of knowledge. Frankly, I’m happy that insurance is finally recognizing that flying a PL21 aircraft isn’t the same. The G3000 is a fantastic platform hampered by terrible training and pilots who dismiss Garmin as “easy” or “not a FMS”.


:werd:

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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 10:06 
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I lust for an M2, but my G1000 CJ does a pretty good job of pretending for a lot less. I would like the additional performance the M2 has over the non-fadec CJ. I also love the additional integration of the G3000. My CJ is comfortable 1000-1100 nm airplane most days. The extra range the M2 gets out of going higher would be beneficial, but if flown single pilot you really shouldn't bank on that.

As for the winglets, my jury is still out. Plus they will cost me a lot more than approx 200k to install them on my CJ, I will have to build a new 400k hangar to fit the new wider wingspan in. :doh: The blinglets on the M2 was marketing trying to make the CJ look newer and more appealing. Not sure they do much, if anything?


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 08 Apr 2020, 11:18 
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Location: Charleston, SC (KJZI)
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......
Embraer’s got a beautiful interior...behind the pilot seats. Even less legroom than in the M2 cockpit (although the scalloped beverage center helps on the pilot side and it’s funny how the AFM shelf can go missing from the copilot side). And while they’ve done a good job with systems integration their G3000 software was even behind Cessna when I flew the P300E. It didn’t even have onboard TOLD.


FYI - The 100 and 300 both have "auto-TOLD" in the recent uploads. The latest "E" versions, not to be confused with the prior "E" version (don't ask me), they shrunk the AFM shelf to provide more legroom.


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 04:46 
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As for the winglets, my jury is still out. Plus they will cost me a lot more than approx 200k to install them on my CJ, I will have to build a new 400k hangar to fit the new wider wingspan in. :doh: The blinglets on the M2 was marketing trying to make the CJ look newer and more appealing. Not sure they do much, if anything?


Hi Brent,

I’ve flown a bunch of CJs and can tell u the winglets help.

I did a flight a few weeks back Auckland, New Zealand back to Gold Coast, Queensland in 4 hours. Was at MTOW out of AKL with 4 POB, landed with 700 lbs. average head wind of 10kts, 1210 NM.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Citation M2 does it get any better?
PostPosted: 09 Apr 2020, 13:34 
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As for the winglets, my jury is still out. Plus they will cost me a lot more than approx 200k to install them on my CJ, I will have to build a new 400k hangar to fit the new wider wingspan in. :doh: The blinglets on the M2 was marketing trying to make the CJ look newer and more appealing. Not sure they do much, if anything?


Hi Brent,

I’ve flown a bunch of CJs and can tell u the winglets help.

I did a flight a few weeks back Auckland, New Zealand back to Gold Coast, Queensland in 4 hours. Was at MTOW out of AKL with 4 POB, landed with 700 lbs. average head wind of 10kts, 1210 NM.

Andrew

Pretty cool Andrew - trying those flights on a non-winglet CJ would not be possible.

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