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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2020, 23:52 
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Username Protected wrote:
- Full fuel results in payload 800 lbs (including owner-pilot) and 1,150 NM range (NBAA, IFR, 100 NM alternate). Tanks topped off will be 160 lbs above AFM, giving about 100 NM more range (at less payload). The Mustang is a 4 person 1,000 NM mission aircraft - not more, not less - cruising normally at about 340 KTAS.


Cessna's range calculator says 967 NM with 800 lbs and 4 pax 1 pilot. 1 pilot and 1 pax at 200 lbs gives 1188NM. (NBAA 100NM reserves, no wind, ISA). I'm curious what those of you who fly the Mustang regularly see as your max range with 1 pilot and 1 passenger (no wind). And curious as to your average block speed at those kinds of distances.

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 00:49 
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Location: Roseburg, Oregon
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I said this on page 2:
You can go with three couples, 150 lbs of bags, and fly 800nm +/- wind with VFR reserves. If you go with two couples, add another 250nm.

If there are just two aboard, fill the tanks and go 1250nm to a VFR destination or 1150nm to an IFR destination. Block speed will be 330kts.

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 01:21 
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Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year?

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 10:29 
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Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like?

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 10:36 
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So the Mustang line was discontinued because Cessna Citation understands the market and their buyer. They know how to maintain values and keep selling new airplanes.

Thinking about a Mustang? Do it.

Does the Mustang have hot wings like the other Citations?


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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 11:32 
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Username Protected wrote:

So the Mustang line was discontinued because Cessna Citation understands the market and their buyer. They know how to maintain values and keep selling new airplanes.

Thinking about a Mustang? Do it.

Does the Mustang have hot wings like the other Citations?


Boots,.

Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air.
Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.

For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air
for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 11:53 
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Username Protected wrote:

Boots,.

Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air.
Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.

For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air
for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.

Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.


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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 12:26 
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Username Protected wrote:
Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like?



Oh man. This is beginning to look a bit more than heavy gazing to me...

Got a TBM you're ready to sell for pennies on the dollar?? :cross:

If I remember correctly, you evaluated the Mustang among the 20 others that you considered before getting the TBM. I thought your conclusion was that the Mustang wasn't a good fit. What factors were at play with that decision back then?

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 12:56 
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Joined: 10/15/15
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Location: EDDS
Aircraft: C510
Official Range Payload Table is attached.
Payload is already including a 200 lbs pilot.

At a RAM rise of about 13 K in cruise, icing in jets is more a problem on long approaches and when not cleared for higher on departure. High RAM rise => smaller icing bands (usually between 0 C RAT and -25 C SAT).

Boots don‘t decrease performance and the ones on the Mustang are, due to size and shape, much more capable than those you find on most MEP and MET aircraft. The Mustang would just not have enough bleed air for hot wings and stabilizers. Performance would be affected too adversely.

I‘ve done my type rating at Flight Safety, Farnborough, UK. Great experience, top level instructors, nice FTD with 24 hours access and an excellent Full Flight Sim. Landing training was very easy after that.

The range of a CJ3 was out of range...
(And my usual trips are quite short)


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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 13:11 
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Username Protected wrote:

Boots,.

Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air.
Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.

For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air
for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.

Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.


Why would the boots be an issue? Worked well and lasted well on a SETP and the TP is throwing rocks against the inboard area and elevator on a SETP. Doubt much time would be spent in ice anyway with the climb performance of the Mustang based on what I've heard from owners. For a personal plane that would not be an issue for me and prefer it over TKS that's on another jet or two.
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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 14:24 
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Joined: 05/23/13
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Username Protected wrote:
Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year?


Hey Scott, it was my hope that this thread might help you and it looks like it has / is!

No one is answering your question because it's a loaded question... I'll take a shot at it but will probably catch some flak!

The Citation inspection program is simple in execution but complex in explanation!

The old legacy Citation phase program was easy to explain, Phase I - IV, a 12 and 24 month requirement and a Phase V (major) inspection due every 36 months.

The new Citation maintenance program has Doc inspections... lots of Doc inspections...

The Doc 8 and the 36 month Doc 10 are the major inspections and then you have regular small items that come due on a regular basis. Cescom or a similar program maintenance tracking system is all but required, it's the only way to keep up with it.

The cost depends on where you'll maintain it. I use $30k a year in maintenance / inspections for my number understanding that every third year that Doc 10 is going to be more than that.

However, if you'll be using Textron Service Centers and MSU's (mobile trucks) the cost will likely exceed $50k a year depending on the airplane. This is where most people look closely at ProParts (parts) and Protech (labor) though at 200 hours a year the program cost is a lot of money annually.

Can you guys with Mustangs maybe share what your cost has been over the last few years?

Also, when it comes to maintenance programs or no programs?

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Last edited on 14 Feb 2020, 14:26, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 14:24 
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Joined: 09/02/09
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Company: OAA
Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
Username Protected wrote:
Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like?



Oh man. This is beginning to look a bit more than heavy gazing to me...

Got a TBM you're ready to sell for pennies on the dollar?? :cross:

If I remember correctly, you evaluated the Mustang among the 20 others that you considered before getting the TBM. I thought your conclusion was that the Mustang wasn't a good fit. What factors were at play with that decision back then?


I'm just curious.
_________________
Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120
Never enough!


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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 15:31 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:

Boots,.

Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air.
Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.

For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air
for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.

Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.


Easily solved Spend more money.
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Power of the Turbine
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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 15:46 
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
Username Protected wrote:
Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like?


Simcom Scottsdale or FS Wichita is it for 141 programs. Initial is $23k. It can be negotiated. Recurrent is $8k.

You only live twice. Do it.

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 Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2020, 17:21 
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Joined: 08/23/10
Posts: 843
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Username Protected wrote:
Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year?


Hey Scott, it was my hope that this thread might help you and it looks like it has / is!

No one is answering your question because it's a loaded question... I'll take a shot at it but will probably catch some flak!

The Citation inspection program is simple in execution but complex in explanation!

The old legacy Citation phase program was easy to explain, Phase I - IV, a 12 and 24 month requirement and a Phase V (major) inspection due every 36 months.

The new Citation maintenance program has Doc inspections... lots of Doc inspections...

The Doc 8 and the 36 month Doc 10 are the major inspections and then you have regular small items that come due on a regular basis. Cescom or a similar program maintenance tracking system is all but required, it's the only way to keep up with it.

The cost depends on where you'll maintain it. I use $30k a year in maintenance / inspections for my number understanding that every third year that Doc 10 is going to be more than that.

However, if you'll be using Textron Service Centers and MSU's (mobile trucks) the cost will likely exceed $50k a year depending on the airplane. This is where most people look closely at ProParts (parts) and Protech (labor) though at 200 hours a year the program cost is a lot of money annually.

Can you guys with Mustangs maybe share what your cost has been over the last few years?

Also, when it comes to maintenance programs or no programs?


I don't have any 510 experience, but I've got 560, 525A and 525B experience with Service Center maintenance and based on that I'd say your $50k is a pretty good estimate if no to limited MSU use. The other thing to keep in mind is that with the phase inspections you are bringing the plane in every 3-6 months. Depending on the proximity of the Service Center to your base you can easily spend another $10k-20k in fuel and commercial flights ferrying it back and forth.

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