19 Apr 2024, 03:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect  Posted: 06 Mar 2020, 09:13 |
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Joined: 10/05/11
Posts: 9577
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Company: Power/mation
Location: Milwaukee, WI (KMKE)
Aircraft: 1963 Debonair B33
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Thanks for that write up. One of many quotable quotes... Username Protected wrote: Unfortunately I think they under-marketed it or they would still be selling them, and the TBM sales guys would be having a tougher time.
If I were king for a day, I'd modify the regs so smaller jets / VLJs could be treated more like SETPs. Then again, that big fan out front does some things that make flying easier that regs can't change.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 06 Mar 2020, 09:25 |
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Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 714
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Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: Overall Cessna did a great job of designing the Mustang for the owner pilot, and still does a great job of supporting it. Unfortunately I think they under-marketed it or they would still be selling them, and the TBM sales guys would be having a tougher time.
Thanks for your input Bill!
I have a different take on why Mustang production ceased, bear in mind that Textron also quit building the CJ1+ and CJ2+... the CJ1+ was replaced years later with the M2 and the 2+ (probably the most popular 525 ever built) has basically been replaced by the CJ3+
I think they quit building the Mustang because they produced enough airplanes to meet the market that existed for that aircraft. Now they are producing the move up aircraft, the Citation M2. If the Mustang is a great airplane, the M2 is an awesome airplane! If Textron had overproduced the Mustang, the pre-owned values would suffer, and it would make it much more difficult for those owners to move up to the new M2.
My issue with the Phenom 100 is that Embraer seems to be competing with itself, we’ve had a couple of clients that ended up disenchanted with that airframe because the one they wanted (100EV) was out of their budget. I think Embraer should have discontinued the P100, and came out with the Phenom 200. Then once they had built a sustainable number of aircraft, and allowed the P100 to settle in, they could’ve come out with the P100EV.
On the surface what Textron does seems misguided, but when you look at the big picture and really study it, they are doing a brilliant job with marketing.
I do not have any inside information on this, but I will not be one bit surprised if you see a new 510 come out in the next couple of years.
Chip, I will bet that the major reason that Textron quit building Mustangs was the profitability was not there compared with their other light jets. Would bet that the price point on the Mustang, (discount to next higher model) far exceeded the cost to build delta. Companies don't discontinue profitable, popular platforms.
Re Phenom 100/100EV.... running the numbers would suggest that it is a much closer comparison to the M2 than the Mustang.
On a new 510 from Textron... will be you dinner that it does not happen. Will even spring for it if you super-size your fries!
Finally, for transition pilots, mentor time is big deal for safety and for insurability. It should be. But based on my limited research, a lot harder to find guys who are 510 typed than 525 typed. I am guessing that the farther out of production the Mustang becomes, the fewer folks with 510 ratings who can mentor pilot or co-pilot.
No doubt that the Mustang is a great choice in terms of value and performance in the owner flown market. But I think the calculus is a bit different for pilots who are already typed, already experienced and don't have a great need or desire for someone to share the flying tasks. Calculus a tad different, I think, for transition pilots now.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 06 Mar 2020, 10:17 |
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Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6784
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Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Bill,
You are correct that the Mustang probably wasn’t very profitable, but for that matter neither are M2’s... they probably do pretty good on CJ3+ but at the end of the day you can see where their investment is and that’s the larger cabins.
It’s a weird tightrope to walk from a business perspective. In a strange way my business has a similarity to there’s that few share. Most years we have as many King Air clients as all other manufacturers combined. The reality is the King Airs are the most work, the light jets are the easiest and the large cabins are much more profitable. From a business perspective an outsider would say “drop the King Airs and light jets and focus on Challengers and Gulfstreams” and the other acquisition companies out there tend to do just that...
BUT-
Kings Airs will be a consistent part of our business no matter what happens to the economy, they will keep us in business when everything else falls. To ignore that business would be very shortsighted. (this is why Textron is still very committed to Beechcraft)
The light jet business creates repeat business for us. Today’s Mustang buyer is tomorrow’s M2 buyer who is then a CJ3+ buyer. Most of our repeat clients started with a light jet and moved up. (Quite a few did the same starting with King Air 90 series)
Today’s CJ3+ / CJ4 / Phenom 300 buyer may move to to a Latitude / Longitude or a Legacy / Praetor.
If Textron doesn’t build a Mustang and I don’t acquire Mustangs... we would both lose that client (potentially for ever). If you bought and destroyed all Mustangs, Textron would fire up the line and replace them... even if they lost money on every one. Even though they don’t build them, they still sell them and it is critical to M2 sales. M2 sales are critical to CJ3+ sales and so on.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 06 Mar 2020, 10:20 |
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Joined: 05/23/13
Posts: 6784
Post Likes: +7324
Company: Jet Acquisitions
Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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[quote="Chip McClure"]Bill,
You are correct that the Mustang probably wasn’t very profitable, but for that matter neither are M2’s... they probably do pretty good on CJ3+ but at the end of the day you can see where their investment is and that’s the larger cabins.
It’s a weird tightrope to walk from a business perspective. In a strange way my business has a similarity to there’s that few share. Its not just about providing what people want, it’s about customer loyalty and repeat business.
Most years we have as many King Air clients as all other manufacturers combined. The reality is the King Airs are the most work, the light jets are the easiest and the large cabins are much more profitable. From a business perspective an outsider would say “drop the King Airs and light jets and focus on Challengers and Gulfstreams” and the other acquisition companies out there tend to do just that...
BUT-
Kings Airs will be a consistent part of our business no matter what happens to the economy, they will keep us in business when everything else falls. To ignore that business would be very shortsighted. (this is why Textron is still very committed to Beechcraft)
The light jet business creates repeat business for us. Today’s Mustang buyer is tomorrow’s M2 buyer who is then a CJ3+ buyer. Most of our repeat clients started with a light jet and moved up. (Quite a few did the same starting with King Air 90 series)
Today’s CJ3+ / CJ4 / Phenom 300 buyer may move to to a Latitude / Longitude or a Legacy / Praetor.
If Textron doesn’t build a Mustang and I don’t acquire Mustangs... we would both lose that client (potentially forever). If you bought and destroyed all Mustangs, Textron would fire up the line and replace them... even if they lost money on every one. Even though they don’t build them, they still sell them and it is critical to M2 sales. M2 sales are critical to CJ3+ sales and so on.
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It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 12:19 |
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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30697
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Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: Mission....KFCM. Winds 200@14G21. Runway 18 2690x75. Perform charts at 7500 lbs says 2025 feet required.
Money. Two questions: 1) Why did you choose 18 over 28L? Were you just looking to demonstrate the (impressive) short field capability of the Mustang? (JOOC, could you depart from 18 with balanced field under the same conditions?) I do sometimes land on 18 or 36 when the wind is strong and straight down the runway but even then it's usually just to make life easier for the tower. Unlike the parallel runways at FCM, there's is virtually no margin for error on the short runway due to roads and terrain near the ends. 2) Why didn't you let me know you were at FCM?
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 12:46 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13586
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Mission....KFCM. Winds 200@14G21. Runway 18 2690x75. Perform charts at 7500 lbs says 2025 feet required.
Money. Two questions: 1) Why did you choose 18 over 28L? Were you just looking to demonstrate the (impressive) short field capability of the Mustang? (JOOC, could you depart from 18 with balanced field under the same conditions?) I do sometimes land on 18 or 36 when the wind is strong and straight down the runway but even then it's usually just to make life easier for the tower. Unlike the parallel runways at FCM, there's is virtually no margin for error on the short runway due to roads and terrain near the ends. 2) Why didn't you let me know you were at FCM?
80 degree crosswind gusting to 27knots on atis. Can do that but it was pretty much straight down 18. I do think it’s important to remain current across all aspects of the aircraft. I was solo..so no time like the present.
Yes I can take off. See diagram.
Had to catch a delta flight.
Back in three weeks...hopefully less
Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 12:55 |
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Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 30697
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Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: 80 degree crosswind gusting to 27knots on atis. Can do that but it was pretty much straight down 18. I do think it’s important to remain current across all aspects of the aircraft. I was solo..so no time like the present.  Quote: Yes I can take off. See diagram. \ That's pretty amazing for a jet. Quote: Had to catch a delta flight.
Back in three weeks...hopefully less Let me know when you're coming back. If you need a ride from MSP to FCM I can probably provide that as well. I'm currently grounded with a broken leg and I'm getting bored but at least I can drive.
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It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 12:56 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13586
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Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Took it to Elliott. GoGo Avance Internet. Mid continent SAM, LEMO plugs, two usb power ports one one left..one on right.
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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 13:26 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
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Username Protected wrote: baller. good video Mark. what's your speed on 2-3 mile final? over the numbers? Well Vapp was 98. Vref 91. Plus half the gust (21-14)/2 =3.5. I few it pretty close to that. 1 knot =100 feet...so not too much wiggle room.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 13:31 |
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Joined: 08/25/10
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Aircraft: TBM7 C510
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I fly into KFCM often. If the guy wasn’t by himself in the tower, I promise you he said, “Hey guys, watch this!”
A jet on 18 is something you wouldn’t see.., just saying. Very impressive from a performance perspective.
I want one. It’s hard to understand the math. You can buy a capable JET like that for about the price of a 15 year old TBM... go to 410 and climb through the high teens at 1500 FPM on two engines. In a JET!
The TBM at 180 with the separator on and 4-5000 feet of icy clouds to go is not the same experience. I like the TBM but anyone who flies it won’t disagree, they have the least amount of power when you need it the most!
The cost per mile isn’t much different and yes, the Mustang burns more fuel..... I drive a DuraMax mostly on the highway so can’t be a hypocrite. The field requirements are certainly something to pay attention to but maybe not as big of deal as some think, as demonstrated.
It must be the type rating or the perception because you can’t argue when the market speaks. Did I say I want one....
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 14:12 |
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Joined: 07/17/15
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Nice video Mark.
Just curious.....why the Lemo plugs? I still wear my Bose out of habit, but definitely never have the noise cancelling on.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 14:17 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13586
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Nice video Mark.
Just curious.....why the Lemo plugs? I still wear my Bose out of habit, but definitely never have the noise cancelling on. LEMO plugs to power them vs battery. Why no noise canceling? Make a difference.
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Mark Hangen
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Power of the Turbine
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 08 Mar 2020, 14:27 |
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Joined: 05/29/13
Posts: 13586
Post Likes: +10972
Company: Easy Ice, LLC
Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: I fly into KFCM often. If the guy wasn’t by himself in the tower, I promise you he said, “Hey guys, watch this!”
A jet on 18 is something you wouldn’t see.., just saying. Very impressive from a performance perspective.
I want one. It’s hard to understand the math. You can buy a capable JET like that for about the price of a 15 year old TBM... go to 410 and climb through the high teens at 1500 FPM on two engines. In a JET!
The TBM at 180 with the separator on and 4-5000 feet of icy clouds to go is not the same experience. I like the TBM but anyone who flies it won’t disagree, they have the least amount of power when you need it the most!
The cost per mile isn’t much different and yes, the Mustang burns more fuel..... I drive a DuraMax mostly on the highway so can’t be a hypocrite. The field requirements are certainly something to pay attention to but maybe not as big of deal as some think, as demonstrated.
It must be the type rating or the perception because you can’t argue when the market speaks. Did I say I want one.... He did comment that he might have seen a jet on 18 one time. So you are probably right. Btw I got to 360 in 18 minutes. Not sure if you have thought about it but ...you should get one. 
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