23 Apr 2024, 23:19 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 23 Oct 2020, 21:28 |
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Joined: 05/08/13 Posts: 444 Post Likes: +234 Company: Citation Jet Exchange Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
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No, $1,800 was what we spent on maintenance. Period. this year. Yes, we are on the parts plan which I advised against and we are getting off of it. But we did not / would not have spent any money, literally, on parts this year program or not. Like I said this year was an anomaly, but pretty amazing.
_________________ The Citation Jet Exchange www.CitationJetX.com CJs, Mustangs, Excels
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 25 Oct 2020, 11:04 |
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Joined: 10/06/09 Posts: 873 Post Likes: +46 Company: Baron Partners, Inc Location: Springfield, IL (KSPI)
Aircraft: CE-510 & T34B.
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Username Protected wrote: No, $1,800 was what we spent on maintenance. Period. this year. Yes, we are on the parts plan which I advised against and we are getting off of it. But we did not / would not have spent any money, literally, on parts this year program or not. Like I said this year was an anomaly, but pretty amazing. Over a six year inspection cycle what kind of savings per hour do you project by dropping Proparts?
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 25 Oct 2020, 21:02 |
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Joined: 09/16/10 Posts: 8891 Post Likes: +1956
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Username Protected wrote: Rockin it. Love the tailwind. The highest ground speed I’ve had is 495 with a 150 tailwind. Was hoping to hit 500, but didn’t quite get there. Couldn't you cheat and push the nose down a smidge. Just to get a photo?
_________________ If you think nobody cares about you. Try not paying your income tax.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 01:20 |
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Joined: 11/08/12 Posts: 6318 Post Likes: +3809 Location: San Carlos, CA - KHWD
Aircraft: Piaggio Avanti
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Username Protected wrote: No, $1,800 was what we spent on maintenance. Period. this year. Yes, we are on the parts plan which I advised against and we are getting off of it. But we did not / would not have spent any money, literally, on parts this year program or not. Like I said this year was an anomaly, but pretty amazing. That is pretty amazing, quite the efficient airplane.
_________________ -Jon C.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 11:11 |
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Joined: 05/08/13 Posts: 444 Post Likes: +234 Company: Citation Jet Exchange Location: St. Louis
Aircraft: 58P C510 C525 Excel
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Username Protected wrote: No, $1,800 was what we spent on maintenance. Period. this year. Yes, we are on the parts plan which I advised against and we are getting off of it. But we did not / would not have spent any money, literally, on parts this year program or not. Like I said this year was an anomaly, but pretty amazing. Over a six year inspection cycle what kind of savings per hour do you project by dropping Proparts?
At the risk of tainting our relationship with Cessna here's what we spent on Proparts in this 3 year contract. $70,000 in program fees vs $46,000 spent. We'll get 66% of that surplus back. That said, I'm scratching my head to where a lot of that money went. The big item we had was a PC board fail for the landing gear circuitry ($6,000), and an generator failure due to a spline gear.
Being on the parts program forces you through textron, often at MSRP or higher. Example, our battery was replaced 2 years ago, on aircraft spruce it was around $2k, but we paid over $3k for it on the program.
With some good management you can shop around for deals and overhauled parts when applicable.
Out of the roughly 9 combined years of citation management I've been involved with not once would we have come out ahead on the programs.
On the CJ we manage an example would be the generator overhauls. Textron kept raising their price to $5900 which was up from $4k the previous quote. I got on the phone and called some direct vendors and found prices around $1800. I was able to get the shop to do these for around $2200. Being on the parts program we would have had no choice but to pay that.
Occasional big events can happen. On our CJ the thrust attenuator actuator and bracket failed for a total parts cost of around $21k. That would have been covered on the program, however when you account for the 200 hours we flew that year the program would have been $70,000 at $348/hr. We totaled in around $32k for the year in parts.
Most large and small management companies agree with my philosophy I've found. Some don't want to have that extra legwork or liability and advocate for them, and some owners (such our Mustang which we are ending out parts contract this month) want a more predictable budget.
Gateway Jets (my company) is happy to broker, manage, or fly any of the C525, C510, or C560XL series for you.
_________________ The Citation Jet Exchange www.CitationJetX.com CJs, Mustangs, Excels
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 12:50 |
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Joined: 07/01/19 Posts: 742 Post Likes: +340
Aircraft: In market
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Mark, impressive numbers. I have a friend with a Mustang and it’s about the perfect plane for his mission of 1-3 people on trips from 500-1200 miles. I love it. One question for other owners, have you had issues with corrosion on the landing gear axles? He just went through a gear rebuild on all three due to corrosion and his ProParts didn’t cover any of it because it was corrosion. He was left with a hefty bill and while I understand it’s not a predictable failure, I fail to see how if it’s maintained by Textron how they could all three be affected at the same time. It’s kept in Chicago, minimal time in coastal operations, though it is 12 years old now.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 12:59 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6787 Post Likes: +7339 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, impressive numbers. I have a friend with a Mustang and it’s about the perfect plane for his mission of 1-3 people on trips from 500-1200 miles. I love it. One question for other owners, have you had issues with corrosion on the landing gear axles? He just went through a gear rebuild on all three due to corrosion and his ProParts didn’t cover any of it because it was corrosion. He was left with a hefty bill and while I understand it’s not a predictable failure, I fail to see how if it’s maintained by Textron how they could all three be affected at the same time. It’s kept in Chicago, minimal time in coastal operations, though it is 12 years old now. This is probably the number one gotcha of any 510 / 525 product, you have to inspect the gear for corrosion as part of the prebuy. It's expensive to do and many buyers opt out or do their prebuy at a non-Textron facility and the corrosion gets missed. They don't find it often, but when they do it's expensive and as you pointed out, not covered by programs. P.S. The same inspection needs to be done on all Citations, just focused on the 510 here, there's a lot of gotchas on the bigger airplanes.
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 13:30 |
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Joined: 07/01/19 Posts: 742 Post Likes: +340
Aircraft: In market
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Thanks Chip. Is this something that could/should be prevented with normal maintenance following Textron’s schedule? Just curious. I find the Mustang incredibly reasonable to operate, right up until that repair, that’s a tough pill to swallow.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 18:47 |
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Joined: 12/05/09 Posts: 1162 Post Likes: +368 Location: Chicago
Aircraft: King Air B200
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Username Protected wrote: Two questions:
1) Why did you choose 18 over 28L? Were you just looking to demonstrate the (impressive) short field capability of the Mustang? (JOOC, could you depart from 18 with balanced field under the same conditions?)
I do sometimes land on 18 or 36 when the wind is strong and straight down the runway but even then it's usually just to make life easier for the tower. Unlike the parallel runways at FCM, there's is virtually no margin for error on the short runway due to roads and terrain near the ends.
2) Why didn't you let me know you were at FCM? 80 degree crosswind gusting to 27knots on atis. Can do that but it was pretty much straight down 18. I do think it’s important to remain current across all aspects of the aircraft. I was solo..so no time like the present. Yes I can take off. See diagram. Had to catch a delta flight. Back in three weeks...hopefully less
Mark, how did you generate this diagram with the KFCM takeoff data? Is this a proprietary app for the Mustang, or something else?
I love the videos!
_________________ This disclaimer contains no legally binding information, and serves no particular purpose.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 26 Oct 2020, 22:57 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13587 Post Likes: +10972 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, how did you generate this diagram with the KFCM takeoff data? Is this a proprietary app for the Mustang, or something else?
I love the videos! It’s the iPreFlight app from APG. They tailor the data to you aircraft. Don’t leave home without it.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 27 Oct 2020, 04:45 |
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Joined: 03/09/13 Posts: 911 Post Likes: +449 Location: Byron Bay,NSW Australia
Aircraft: CE525,PA31
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Username Protected wrote: Thanks Chip. Is this something that could/should be prevented with normal maintenance following Textron’s schedule? Just curious. I find the Mustang incredibly reasonable to operate, right up until that repair, that’s a tough pill to swallow. hasn’t Textron just amended the inspection requirements? Thought I remember hearing about it in the recent CJP virtual convention. Andrew
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 27 Oct 2020, 11:53 |
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Joined: 12/05/09 Posts: 1162 Post Likes: +368 Location: Chicago
Aircraft: King Air B200
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Username Protected wrote: Mark, how did you generate this diagram with the KFCM takeoff data? Is this a proprietary app for the Mustang, or something else?
I love the videos! It’s the iPreFlight app from APG. They tailor the data to you aircraft. Don’t leave home without it.
Thanks, I'll look that up.
_________________ This disclaimer contains no legally binding information, and serves no particular purpose.
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