29 Mar 2024, 07:39 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 13 Feb 2020, 23:52 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: - Full fuel results in payload 800 lbs (including owner-pilot) and 1,150 NM range (NBAA, IFR, 100 NM alternate). Tanks topped off will be 160 lbs above AFM, giving about 100 NM more range (at less payload). The Mustang is a 4 person 1,000 NM mission aircraft - not more, not less - cruising normally at about 340 KTAS.
Cessna's range calculator says 967 NM with 800 lbs and 4 pax 1 pilot. 1 pilot and 1 pax at 200 lbs gives 1188NM. (NBAA 100NM reserves, no wind, ISA). I'm curious what those of you who fly the Mustang regularly see as your max range with 1 pilot and 1 passenger (no wind). And curious as to your average block speed at those kinds of distances.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 01:21 |
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Joined: 05/31/13 Posts: 1227 Post Likes: +600 Company: Docking Drawer Location: KCCR
Aircraft: C425
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Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year?
_________________ ATP, CFI-I, MEI http://www.dockingdrawer.com
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 10:29 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like?
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 10:36 |
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Joined: 01/18/13 Posts: 13834 Post Likes: +7168 Company: Retired Location: San Clemente, CA
Aircraft: Link Trainer
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Username Protected wrote: So the Mustang line was discontinued because Cessna Citation understands the market and their buyer. They know how to maintain values and keep selling new airplanes.
Thinking about a Mustang? Do it.
Does the Mustang have hot wings like the other Citations?
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 11:32 |
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Joined: 12/30/15 Posts: 714 Post Likes: +740 Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
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Username Protected wrote: So the Mustang line was discontinued because Cessna Citation understands the market and their buyer. They know how to maintain values and keep selling new airplanes.
Thinking about a Mustang? Do it.
Does the Mustang have hot wings like the other Citations?
Boots,.
Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air. Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.
For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 11:53 |
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Joined: 01/18/13 Posts: 13834 Post Likes: +7168 Company: Retired Location: San Clemente, CA
Aircraft: Link Trainer
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Username Protected wrote: Boots,.
Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air. Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.
For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.
Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 12:26 |
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Joined: 12/19/11 Posts: 3302 Post Likes: +1424 Company: Bottom Line Experts Location: KTOL - Toledo, OH
Aircraft: 2004 SR22 G2
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Username Protected wrote: Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like? Oh man. This is beginning to look a bit more than heavy gazing to me... Got a TBM you're ready to sell for pennies on the dollar?? If I remember correctly, you evaluated the Mustang among the 20 others that you considered before getting the TBM. I thought your conclusion was that the Mustang wasn't a good fit. What factors were at play with that decision back then?
_________________ Don Coburn Corporate Expense Reduction Specialist 2004 SR22 G2
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 13:11 |
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Joined: 01/28/13 Posts: 6037 Post Likes: +3998 Location: Indiana
Aircraft: C195, D17S, M20TN
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Username Protected wrote: Boots,.
Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air. Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.
For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.
Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.
Why would the boots be an issue? Worked well and lasted well on a SETP and the TP is throwing rocks against the inboard area and elevator on a SETP. Doubt much time would be spent in ice anyway with the climb performance of the Mustang based on what I've heard from owners. For a personal plane that would not be an issue for me and prefer it over TKS that's on another jet or two.
_________________ Chuck KEVV
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 14:24 |
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Joined: 05/23/13 Posts: 6718 Post Likes: +7257 Company: Jet Acquisitions Location: Franklin, TN 615-739-9091 chip@jetacq.com
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Username Protected wrote: Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year? Hey Scott, it was my hope that this thread might help you and it looks like it has / is! No one is answering your question because it's a loaded question... I'll take a shot at it but will probably catch some flak! The Citation inspection program is simple in execution but complex in explanation! The old legacy Citation phase program was easy to explain, Phase I - IV, a 12 and 24 month requirement and a Phase V (major) inspection due every 36 months. The new Citation maintenance program has Doc inspections... lots of Doc inspections... The Doc 8 and the 36 month Doc 10 are the major inspections and then you have regular small items that come due on a regular basis. Cescom or a similar program maintenance tracking system is all but required, it's the only way to keep up with it. The cost depends on where you'll maintain it. I use $30k a year in maintenance / inspections for my number understanding that every third year that Doc 10 is going to be more than that. However, if you'll be using Textron Service Centers and MSU's (mobile trucks) the cost will likely exceed $50k a year depending on the airplane. This is where most people look closely at ProParts (parts) and Protech (labor) though at 200 hours a year the program cost is a lot of money annually. Can you guys with Mustangs maybe share what your cost has been over the last few years? Also, when it comes to maintenance programs or no programs?
_________________ It’s a brave new world, one where most have forgotten the old ways.
Last edited on 14 Feb 2020, 14:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 14:24 |
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Joined: 09/02/09 Posts: 8415 Post Likes: +8303 Company: OAA Location: Oklahoma City - PWA/Calistoga KSTS
Aircraft: UMF3, UBF 2, P180 II
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Username Protected wrote: Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like? Oh man. This is beginning to look a bit more than heavy gazing to me... Got a TBM you're ready to sell for pennies on the dollar?? If I remember correctly, you evaluated the Mustang among the 20 others that you considered before getting the TBM. I thought your conclusion was that the Mustang wasn't a good fit. What factors were at play with that decision back then?
I'm just curious.
_________________ Travel Air B4000, Waco UBF2,UMF3,YMF5, UPF7,YKS 6, Fairchild 24W, Cessna 120 Never enough!
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 15:31 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13578 Post Likes: +10963 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Boots,.
Kind of weird,.... for wings, M2 & up in Citation family have hot wings, bleed air. Mustang has boots. Advantage other Citations.
For windshield, Mustang has a heated windscreen. Other Citations have bleed air for windscreen anti-ice. Advantage Mustang.
Thanks. That is what I thought. That would be a show stopper for me.
Easily solved Spend more money.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 15:46 |
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Joined: 05/29/13 Posts: 13578 Post Likes: +10963 Company: Easy Ice, LLC Location: Marquette, Michigan; Scottsdale, AZ, Telluride
Aircraft: C510,C185,C310,R66
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Username Protected wrote: Curios where everyone did their initial and go for recurrent. What has that experience been like? Simcom Scottsdale or FS Wichita is it for 141 programs. Initial is $23k. It can be negotiated. Recurrent is $8k. You only live twice. Do it.
_________________ Mark Hangen Deputy Minister of Ice (aka FlyingIceperson) Power of the Turbine "Jet Elite"
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Post subject: Re: If the Mustang does your mission, it's darn near perfect Posted: 14 Feb 2020, 17:21 |
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Joined: 08/23/10 Posts: 843 Post Likes: +660
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Username Protected wrote: Could one of the Mustang owners outline the inspection routine and approximate cost for an airplane flying 200 hours/year? Hey Scott, it was my hope that this thread might help you and it looks like it has / is! No one is answering your question because it's a loaded question... I'll take a shot at it but will probably catch some flak! The Citation inspection program is simple in execution but complex in explanation! The old legacy Citation phase program was easy to explain, Phase I - IV, a 12 and 24 month requirement and a Phase V (major) inspection due every 36 months. The new Citation maintenance program has Doc inspections... lots of Doc inspections... The Doc 8 and the 36 month Doc 10 are the major inspections and then you have regular small items that come due on a regular basis. Cescom or a similar program maintenance tracking system is all but required, it's the only way to keep up with it. The cost depends on where you'll maintain it. I use $30k a year in maintenance / inspections for my number understanding that every third year that Doc 10 is going to be more than that. However, if you'll be using Textron Service Centers and MSU's (mobile trucks) the cost will likely exceed $50k a year depending on the airplane. This is where most people look closely at ProParts (parts) and Protech (labor) though at 200 hours a year the program cost is a lot of money annually. Can you guys with Mustangs maybe share what your cost has been over the last few years? Also, when it comes to maintenance programs or no programs?
I don't have any 510 experience, but I've got 560, 525A and 525B experience with Service Center maintenance and based on that I'd say your $50k is a pretty good estimate if no to limited MSU use. The other thing to keep in mind is that with the phase inspections you are bringing the plane in every 3-6 months. Depending on the proximity of the Service Center to your base you can easily spend another $10k-20k in fuel and commercial flights ferrying it back and forth.
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