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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 10:43 
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Another big consideration seems to be the Autopilot. Many of the earlier models came with the S-Tec 550 Autopilot, which has been upgraded to the S-TEC Magic 1500 Autopilot in many of those birds. My understanding is that the 1500 is far better than the 550, so that also seems like a must-have if you're shopping for earlier models.

It looks like Garmin has the GFC 600 certified for the JetProp and is working to have it certified for the Meridian in the future. I wouldn't want to be the guinea pig on that but the Garmin digital autopilots are a dream if it were a reasonable cost and downtime, that would be an attractive option down the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 13:39 
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My best advice to the OP:

1. Join MMOPA. All of the information you need is there, along with pre-buy shops, service location information, all the details on various model years and equipment changes, etc. It's $250 well spent if you're serious about a Meridian (or any PA46).

2. Get a buy-side broker familiar with the PA46. That will save you a lot of time and aggravation. We used Joe & Ben Casey (Joe is also one of the top PA46 instructors) and it was invaluable, even for a newer airframe (M600) still under warranty. But we looked hard at older Meridians before deciding for mission reasons to go with the M600 and learned a lot in the process. Another good broker is Jesse Adams at Aerista (he is also a CFI and Meridian pilot). And there are others. It's pretty easy to make an error in a purchase like this so a good broker who knows the airframes and has good connections with the pre-buy people will save you a lot of time, money and problems.

I was and remain very impressed with the robustness of the PA46 airframe. I've also seen them being built at Vero Beach and was impressed by the strength of the spar and manufacturing process. As Chuck noted, there are incremental differences in various Meridian model years and an expert can help you sort all that out.

Just be aware that the Meridian is an 800-nm mission airplane. If you need to fill the seats, it's less. The Jetprop goes a little further. The M600 (and TBMs) go a LOT further but you pay for that capability.

But if the Meridian fits your mission, it's the best SETP value out there. As noted above, the Avidyne Meridians seem to have the best value proposition assuming you're ok with the avionics - I flew Avidyne in my Cirrus and liked them. An Avidyne bird with a 1500/2100 or 3100 Genesys (STEC) autopilot and Garmin or Avidyne navigators would be a great airplane and less expensive (and more upgradeable) than a legacy G1000 Meridian in all likelihood.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 16:17 
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Most of the points have been covered here. I have Avidyne and GTN-650. A great combo in my mind. Windshield is a biggie, about $30k, so make sure that is good. If side window had a door it will eventually need to be replaced with a window with no door. I got dung on the hydraulic pump for the gear. There is an SB for that. Make sure it is complied with or gear can collapse. Mine partially did but no wing touched the ground thankfully. Avidyne still offers warranty on the avionics so do that if you get an Avidyne bird. Borescope the engine. If close to a hot section do the HSI. I had some unpleasant surprises on mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 17:06 
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Username Protected wrote:
Most of the points have been covered here. I have Avidyne and GTN-650. A great combo in my mind. Windshield is a biggie, about $30k, so make sure that is good. If side window had a door it will eventually need to be replaced with a window with no door. I got dung on the hydraulic pump for the gear. There is an SB for that. Make sure it is complied with or gear can collapse. Mine partially did but no wing touched the ground thankfully. Avidyne still offers warranty on the avionics so do that if you get an Avidyne bird. Borescope the engine. If close to a hot section do the HSI. I had some unpleasant surprises on mine.


Good feedback Greg. How many hours did your bird have when you bought it? What specific engine issues did you have and what did it cost to address it? Don't want to pour salt on that wound, just want to understand...

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 17:13 
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Plane had 1425 when I purchased 3 years ago. 1802 when I went it for hot section. Had an engine failure 5.7 hours after that on take-off (see Crash Forum). Until we finalize what happened I can't say here. Combustion liner had to be replaced (110k less 93k Pratt credit), segments, seal ring, PT vane of which I got Pratt credits too. CT blades had to be blended. About $54k for hot section. Pretty surprised on a 1st run engine. So, in retrospect, my focus would be on the engine. Lots of very expensive parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 17:44 
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Plane had 1425 when I purchased 3 years ago. 1802 when I went it for hot section. Had an engine failure 5.7 hours after that on take-off (see Crash Forum). Until we finalize what happened I can't say here. Combustion liner had to be replaced (110k less 93k Pratt credit), segments, seal ring, PT vane of which I got Pratt credits too. CT blades had to be blended. About $54k for hot section. Pretty surprised on a 1st run engine. So, in retrospect, my focus would be on the engine. Lots of very expensive parts.


OK I seem to remember that engine failure.

Again, sorry to pour salt but your out of pocket expenses for the HSI and repairs were 110K-93K+54K=$71K? Do I understand that correctly? Why was there a credit from Pratt? Was the engine on Pratt programs?

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 18:00 
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Don,

HSI, in total, was $54k. I think on first run engines most people say to expect $20-$30k for an HSI. Pratt credits were for various reasons. Parts that were built to last 3600 only lasting 1800, then they will likely give you a 50% credit on a new part. Combustion liner has a new design to reduce sulfidation potential. This was a 90% credit or so. I have seen anywhere from 50% to 100% credit depending on part and reason for change. Still, 58 CT blades are $110k. If yours were bad (not serviceable) at 1800 hours it could cost you $55k for new, which is a chunk of change. But you would end up with CT blades built for 3600 more hours. Not sure how that impacts value, to be honest.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 18:07 
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Username Protected wrote:
Don,

HSI, in total, was $54k. I think on first run engines most people say to expect $20-$30k for an HSI. Pratt credits were for various reasons. Parts that were built to last 3600 only lasting 1800, then they will likely give you a 50% credit on a new part. Combustion liner has a new design to reduce sulfidation potential. This was a 90% credit or so. I have seen anywhere from 50% to 100% credit depending on part and reason for change. Still, 58 CT blades are $110k. If yours were bad (not serviceable) at 1800 hours it could cost you $55k for new, which is a chunk of change. But you would end up with CT blades built for 3600 more hours. Not sure how that impacts value, to be honest.


I'm not likely to make any moves for some time but am just trying to educate myself...

So if you were to make this purchase again at the hours the airplane had, you would've made an HSI part of the pre-purchase inspection? If so, what would you have suggested as a split between the current owner and yourself on the $54k?

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2019, 19:37 
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Very tough question Don. Depends on how close you are to HSI. If within 200 hours I would request the HSI be done and split the cost. At 1425 I knew it was coming so I factored that into my offer. If you can get work with the seller then you get to pick the shop and determine what parts to replace or repair. If you buy one with "fresh" HSI then you need to look very carefully at the report to see what was found and how they opted to deal with the issues that were found.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 11:07 
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Greg - as a fellow flyer behind a PT642A (M600), I would love to hear what folks think caused the failure. While rare in the PT6, they are not unknown ... and following so quickly after an HSI raises questions about how that was done. If you're comfortable (and feel free to PM this info), I would be interested to know which shop did your HSI. So glad everything turned out ok.

But in general terms, an HSI would simply not be part of a typical sale transaction. Most sellers would either do the HSI and sell the aircraft with it completed at around 1800 hours, or would just tell the buyer to do it. Given the overall cost of used Meridians of this vintage, I don't think you'd find many sellers willing to do that. Any time you open up the turbine for the HSI, you do run some risk as Greg found out - I don't know why a seller would really take that risk versus just completing the HSI and selling the plane on that basis. At least when we were looking at Meridians a year ago into early 2019, that's how the market shaped up.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 19 Nov 2019, 11:50 
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When I bought my Meridian last year it was about 60 hours shy of needing a HSI. The seller and I agreed that the buyer would pay for the inspection portion of the HSI, and the seller would pay for the needed repairs. As I recall the inspection cost me about $18k and the repairs cost the seller about $22k. Likewise I paid for the prebuy/annual inspection and the seller paid for all airworthiness items. We structured it like this upfront because I needed certainty of a deal so that I could close by the end of the year (even if the repairs couldn't be completed in time, but thankfully they were).


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 09:28 
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Chuck pretty much summed it up.

Personally I think the best value is a early G500 GTN750 panel in a plane with the gross weight increase. Really easy to upgrade and great to fly behind. Lots of those birds for well under $1M.

And like Chuck said make sure to get a good pre buy from a PA 46 expert. That’s huge.

Mike


So what could I reasonably expect to pay for a Meridian that fits this description?


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 11:36 
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Username Protected wrote:
Chuck pretty much summed it up.

Personally I think the best value is a early G500 GTN750 panel in a plane with the gross weight increase. Really easy to upgrade and great to fly behind. Lots of those birds for well under $1M.

And like Chuck said make sure to get a good pre buy from a PA 46 expert. That’s huge.

Mike


So what could I reasonably expect to pay for a Meridian that fits this description?

$600-800k I think is a good ballpark. Maybe closer to $700-800.

Chip-

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 24 Nov 2019, 22:28 
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Total time on airplane weighs in heavily, 120.00 an hour is a conservative ding per hour.
A super low time nicely upgraded pre 2006 could be higher.
The panel upgrade is in the 100 to 150k range depending on how fancy you want to get
So if you want to upgrade the Meggit yourself subtract that amount


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a Meridian...must-haves, and must-avoids?
PostPosted: 25 Nov 2019, 12:41 
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I have a little over 2600 hours in meridians. Most of it being one of the factory 01s that had high gross weight. We bought the airplane with 659 hours on it in 2013 and sold it 22 months later with 2550 hours on it. I would stay away from mmopa if it were me. They have a poor culture when it comes to safety, anti standardized training is my biggest concern. I would use Dick Rochfort for training, I found him to be the most knowledgeable and big on standardized training. I’ve been flying pa46s since 2001 when we got our first Malibu. Wish we never got rid of it. The biggest issue is parts, Aviall is so slow. Everything was 60 days. The good news is there weren’t many parts it needed. We put the 1500 in ours and it’s a great addition now that the kinks are worked out with the 3100 it’s better yet. Our hot section price was 9500, all in. Most don’t fully understand the science of sulfadation and try to go easy on a turbine, while causing more damage. Hence the higher prices on hot sections. The key is to get the itt above 700 and don’t cruise less then that. I found ours was really a 700 mile airplane, we are dc based, so we only made south Florida 2 times nonstop, even with 2 people on board. I was shocked how well the meridian held up to our use and cycles, being it’s not of pc12 or tbm build quality. When it was time for waas and lpv in 2014 I was not a fan of the g500 so I opted to keep the meggits, which performed flawlessly for me, and depicted information better for me, we went with ifds and loved them. I did fly an avidyne plane a fair amount and liked it too, we had a 2010 for a while and I never cared for g1000, the center pedestal makes it even harder to get in and out. I’m certainly willing to talk about my experiences with anyone.
Craig Woodberry


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