19 Apr 2024, 04:05 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 09:47 |
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Joined: 12/22/07 Posts: 12882 Post Likes: +13295 Company: Midwest Chemtrails, LLC Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
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Username Protected wrote: Why is there so much reliance on electronic controls in modern Aero Diesels? Performance, efficiency and emissions ... controls the amount of fuel injected, when it is injected, boost mgt and cooling (radiators and intercoolers) mgt. I could not find any references that aero diesels are using variable valve timing. I can argue that either way. Which answer do you prefer?
_________________ Life is a DiY project.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 09:54 |
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Joined: 11/03/08 Posts: 14567 Post Likes: +22924 Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
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Username Protected wrote: I could not find any references that aero diesels are using variable valve timing. I can argue that either way. Which answer do you prefer? For a constant-RPM engine, VVT is all cost for no benefit. Also not much benefit from the exhaust retarder function that comes with VVT for free
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 11:07 |
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Joined: 08/26/15 Posts: 9542 Post Likes: +8779 Company: airlines (*CRJ,A320) Location: Florida panhandle
Aircraft: Travel Air,T-6B,etc*
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Username Protected wrote: In a mid mounted wing (think Aerostar or the Celera), the fuselage shape at the wing root is nearly a flat wall already and not typically tapered at the wing root. In short, it's the ideal placement of a wing to minimize intersection drag, which is why Ted Smith made the Aerostar a mid wing. Of course the downside of this config is that the wing is occupying a great deal of valuable space in the middle of the fuselage or cabin. The Celera is countering this by placing the wing far back on the fuselage, outside the cabin... The Piaggio Avanti is one more good example of this kind of structural-aerodynamic thought process, putting the wing box behind the people box and taking advantage of that by making it a mid wing. There was a good, thorough article discussing the design in Flying magazine when the airplane was new sometime in the 1980s. I'm pretty sure it was a Garrison article (imagine that) but I can't seem to find it on google. Starship sort of split the difference and put the wing box under and behind~ish, but it also had those big strakes (a Rutan thumbprint) rather than a short chord root like the Avanti wing. Quote: As in all things, everything is a trade off... It certainly keeps things interesting!
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 11:37 |
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Joined: 09/11/09 Posts: 5288 Post Likes: +4199 Company: Looking Location: Tulsa, Ok
Aircraft: Baron/Bonanza
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Username Protected wrote: Interesting fairly long video on this plane.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E38cc-4TvX8Way cool engine tech....... perhaps Peter and the Raptor should visit them for pointers.....or a loaner engine.....Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
_________________ I don't have a problem with anger, I have a problem with idiots.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 22:20 |
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Joined: 01/10/17 Posts: 1693 Post Likes: +1161 Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
Aircraft: various mid century
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Doug there were successful diesels flying well before electronic controls. Giberson is an example. Germans had them back before WWII. I just wondered why not keep it mechanical injection and simplify things since we are near constant RPM most of the time compared to auto applications.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 22:27 |
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Joined: 12/07/17 Posts: 7035 Post Likes: +5807 Company: Malco Power Design Location: KLVJ
Aircraft: 1976 Baron 58
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Username Protected wrote: Doug there were successful diesels flying well before electronic controls. Giberson is an example. Germans had them back before WWII. I just wondered why not keep it mechanical injection and simplify things since we are near constant RPM most of the time compared to auto applications. Modern diesels can develop a whole lot more power on a whole lot less fuel with (and this is the big one for airplanes) much less drastic power pulses by using common rail high pressure electronically controlled injections. My truck uses as many as 7 injections per cycle and standing next to it you can’t tell it apart from a gas engine truck unless you really know what you’re listening for.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 08 Dec 2020, 22:41 |
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Joined: 01/10/17 Posts: 1693 Post Likes: +1161 Company: Skyhaven Airport Inc
Aircraft: various mid century
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Interesting 7 pulses per cycle. It’s better no doubt
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 09 Dec 2020, 11:35 |
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Joined: 12/22/07 Posts: 12882 Post Likes: +13295 Company: Midwest Chemtrails, LLC Location: KPTK (SE Michigan)
Aircraft: C205
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Username Protected wrote: The Piaggio Avanti is one more good example of this kind of structural-aerodynamic thought process, putting the wing box behind the people box and taking advantage of that by making it a mid wing. There was a good, thorough article discussing the design in Flying magazine when the airplane was new sometime in the 1980s. I'm pretty sure it was a Garrison article (imagine that) but I can't seem to find it on google. https://www.flyingmag.com/piaggio-avant ... but-great/Informative. Thank you for mentioning it. It also led me to the Beech Triumph ... which I had forgotten about. Also interesting that PG hangs the Starship debacle on Beech execs, not Rutan.
_________________ Life is a DiY project.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 09 Dec 2020, 12:06 |
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Joined: 08/26/15 Posts: 9542 Post Likes: +8779 Company: airlines (*CRJ,A320) Location: Florida panhandle
Aircraft: Travel Air,T-6B,etc*
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Username Protected wrote: The Piaggio Avanti is one more good example of this kind of structural-aerodynamic thought process, putting the wing box behind the people box and taking advantage of that by making it a mid wing. There was a good, thorough article discussing the design in Flying magazine when the airplane was new sometime in the 1980s. I'm pretty sure it was a Garrison article (imagine that) but I can't seem to find it on google. https://www.flyingmag.com/piaggio-avant ... but-great/Informative. Thank you for mentioning it. It also led me to the Beech Triumph ... which I had forgotten about. Also interesting that PG hangs the Starship debacle on Beech execs, not Rutan. That's a good article. I was thinking of an earlier one, probably late 1980s, that discussed the lifting surfaces but also included even more points, such as the flow between the nacelles and fuselage and how that works with the pusher props and the wing intersections in that area.
I want to say it was about 1988 because I'm pretty sure I had a subscription that year (birthday present), but I can mis-remember things with the best of 'em.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 09 Feb 2021, 18:30 |
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Joined: 10/18/11 Posts: 1031 Post Likes: +587
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
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is this a single engine Avanti.
with the respective fuel burns +installed weight of the Red diesel engine vs. the pt6 crossing at about 3 to 5 hours endurance, I would look seriously at putting a proven turbine in it and proving it works. an even better engine would be the Honeywell /garret turboprop pusher that is used in the general atomics grim Reaper.
If its drag is really that much less it could be a great aircraft with a proven engine that is in production.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 10 Feb 2021, 11:32 |
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Joined: 09/29/10 Posts: 5681 Post Likes: +4872 Company: USAF Simulator Instructor Location: Wichita Valley Airport (F14)
Aircraft: Bonanza G35
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Username Protected wrote: is this a single engine Avanti.
with the respective fuel burns +installed weight of the Red diesel engine vs. the pt6 crossing at about 3 to 5 hours endurance, I would look seriously at putting a proven turbine in it and proving it works. an even better engine would be the Honeywell /garret turboprop pusher that is used in the general atomics grim Reaper.
If its drag is really that much less it could be a great aircraft with a proven engine that is in production. Only a guess, but I think the Celera guys know that. Their design mission is high altitude, long endurance: radio relay, reconnaissance, etc. The business aircraft paint is to get coverage in the aviation press now that they’ve proved the thing works. BWTHDIK.
_________________ FTFA RTFM
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 10 Feb 2021, 21:01 |
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Joined: 11/22/12 Posts: 2595 Post Likes: +2352 Company: Retired Location: Lynnwood, WA (KPAE)
Aircraft: 1993 Bonanza A36TN
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Username Protected wrote: If its drag is really that much less it could be a great aircraft... That's a big "if". All we know is that it flies, there've been no reports of its actual performance.
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Post subject: Re: Otto Aviation Celera 500L Flew This Week Posted: 17 Feb 2021, 12:29 |
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Joined: 10/18/11 Posts: 1031 Post Likes: +587
Aircraft: Seabee Aerostar 700
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the flying magazine article is available on line now https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraf ... 0l-design/ interesting thoughts The Avanti is probably what the Otto will be like in real life with deicing etc.
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