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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:45 
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Mooney could probably be certified in utility category with paperwork only. The airframe is as stout as anything in the air with maybe Cessna TTx being close in ability to handle a G load. Mooney's Achilles' heal is the landing gear and always has been. It's not really capable of absorbing any loads and transfers all of them to the spar. Years ago they should have redesigned it.


Same issue with the TTx. Amazing airframe design (after Cessna fixed a lot of the homebuilt issues from the Lancair days), but the gear was an afterthought at best. Columbia intended it to retract and Cessna never fully re-engineered it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:48 
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I think tht 61 knot stall speed is another big hurdle to cross if gross weight is to be increased above 3368 lbs. Not easily solved.

If I were in charge of Mooney, I'd implement a thorough weight savings plan to get the fat out of the airframe. Mooneys are indeed hell-for-stout and we all brag about that, but at some point having an 8 g ultimate strength airframe ought to be good enough, with more payload instead of a 12 or 14 g or whatever it might be today.

Cirrus did an amazing job reducing their structural weight... Mooney and Textron really need to do the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:54 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think tht 61 knot stall speed is another big hurdle to cross if gross weight is to be increased above 3368 lbs. Not easily solved.

If I were in charge of Mooney, I'd implement a thorough weight savings plan to get the fat out of the airframe. Mooneys are indeed hell-for-stout and we all brag about that, but at some point having an 8 g ultimate strength airframe ought to be good enough, with more payload instead of a 12 or 14 g or whatever it might be today.

Cirrus did an amazing job reducing their structural weight... Mooney and Textron really need to do the same.


microaero.com solves it for $1500. Plus IIRC there still was 4knots to spare on the Acclaim I used to fly to begin with. Maybe it was only 2knots. 2knots buys a lot weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:07 
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Maybe Mooney needs to go after a different market. They built this plane in the 80s. Fast, two-place cross country and gentleman acro fun machine. Yes, it sounds like an RV-6 but a certified airplane is a different market. I saw the prototype In civilian colors when they were competing for the USAF contract. Neat airplane.

Attachment:
8C2AD25F-9D1A-4F9C-BCAF-E8F1C813BEA3.jpeg


“This prototype of Mooney's first private venture in the military market flew for the first time late 1982. It was intended as a side-by-side two-seat primary and basic trainer with aerobatic capabilities. It was based on the M20K also known as Model 231. The model was not taken into production.
“There was another private military (ad)venture, the M20T Predator of 1991. That was a two-seat entry-level trainer designed for USAF EFS (Enhanced Flight Screener) competition. The EFS competition was won by the Slingsby T-3. The Predator protoype was a hybrid of parts of M20C, M20E, M22, 201 and new produced parts. It is still registered as N20XT (c/n 28-0001).”


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:54 
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I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:59 
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Username Protected wrote:
Maybe Mooney needs to go after a different market. They built this plane in the 80s. Fast, two-place cross country and gentleman acro fun machine. Yes, it sounds like an RV-6 but a certified airplane is a different market. I saw the prototype In civilian colors when they were competing for the USAF contract. Neat airplane.

Attachment:
8C2AD25F-9D1A-4F9C-BCAF-E8F1C813BEA3.jpeg


“This prototype of Mooney's first private venture in the military market flew for the first time late 1982. It was intended as a side-by-side two-seat primary and basic trainer with aerobatic capabilities. It was based on the M20K also known as Model 231. The model was not taken into production.
“There was another private military (ad)venture, the M20T Predator of 1991. That was a two-seat entry-level trainer designed for USAF EFS (Enhanced Flight Screener) competition. The EFS competition was won by the Slingsby T-3. The Predator protoype was a hybrid of parts of M20C, M20E, M22, 201 and new produced parts. It is still registered as N20XT (c/n 28-0001).”


The airframe of one of those two seat canopy Mooneys is at Lakeland in the EAA museum there. Still a neat looking plane. Ok, possible correction. The plane was there but I can't find any indication that it is still there. Was outside on static display but not visible in any Google Maps/Earth pictures and the Museum does not list it as a currently displayed plane.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/MooneyM20TPredatorN20XT.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M2 ... rN20XT.jpg


Last edited on 11 Nov 2019, 17:49, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:02 
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I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


I tend to agree. All I see from American manufacturers (with the exception of Cirrus) across the board is lipsticked pigs. I could only roll my eyes when Beech introduced the "King Ranch" KA earlier this year. Gimme a break. I see no Diamonds or Pipistrels here amongst the US GA manufacturers. It's sad, but it's time to move on to innovation. Those who don't, will fall away. You can't expect to sell a $1m piston single designed in the late 40's forever. We'd never accept that in any other part of business, so why in aviation?

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:36 
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Mooney was trying to sell airplanes. Cirrus is selling a lifestyle. O.A. Beech understood that 40 years ago. But like Mooney, nobody has been keeping it fresh. It's only a matter of time before the last Bonanza and Baron are built. And probably not that much time.

I’ve written about this here before. I wandered around mooney’s booth at Oshkosh and looked at every detail of their display. No one approached me to try to sell me one, and I owned a 201 for over a decade. I should be on their short list already I’m already 90% of the way to a sale. Even with the best product in the world, if you’re not selling, I am not buying. No point in buying something that isn’t going to be able to be supported.


You're assuming sales is what's holding Mooney back. From what I've heard, Mooney has had a 6+ month wait to buy a new plane. If it takes 6 months to take delivery, it's time to ramp up production. If Mooney can ramp production, then lack of sales doesn't hold the company back.

Bad form to show up at any trade show and not be ready to show your product, but I suspect production cost is the real challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:51 
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Username Protected wrote:
I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.

I agree with this :sad:


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 20:55 
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I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


I tend to agree. All I see from American manufacturers (with the exception of Cirrus) across the board is lipsticked pigs. I could only roll my eyes when Beech introduced the "King Ranch" KA earlier this year. Gimme a break. I see no Diamonds or Pipistrels here amongst the US GA manufacturers. It's sad, but it's time to move on to innovation. Those who don't, will fall away. You can't expect to sell a $1m piston single designed in the late 40's forever. We'd never accept that in any other part of business, so why in aviation?



Because other than Cirrus, no supplier is offering any innovation. And the proof seems to be in the pudding as they have 30% worldwide market share in single-engine pistons.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 21:10 
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With the exception of Cirrus why is that companies like Diamond and Pipistrel are designed and produced in other countries than the US? Are there legal or financial advantages in Europe that there isn't here?


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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 22:07 
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With the exception of Cirrus why is that companies like Diamond and Pipistrel are designed and produced in other countries than the US? Are there legal or financial advantages in Europe that there isn't here?


I think it's four-fold:

1. Necessity is the mother of invention. With Avgas prices around $10/gal, it pushed European manufacturers towards diesel, which isn't as heavily taxed for aviation (as they all fawn over the airlines and subsidize that).

2. Eurocontrol charges per mile for their IFR services above 2000kg (4400lbs), this has resulted in a lot of development in the sub-2000kg sector.

3. Simpler Microlight and LSA-type rules.

4. EASA-certification is today easier to achieve than FAA, and since it's reciprocal, it's a backdoor into the US market.

On top of this, I think the US manufacturers became a little complacent. Avgas was cheap and there was no real need to innovate.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 01:21 
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Username Protected wrote:
You're assuming sales is what's holding Mooney back. From what I've heard, Mooney has had a 6+ month wait to buy a new plane. If it takes 6 months to take delivery, it's time to ramp up production. If Mooney can ramp production, then lack of sales doesn't hold the company back.

Bad form to show up at any trade show and not be ready to show your product, but I suspect production cost is the real challenge.


Mooney's approach at airventure is an indicator that they don't get it.
GAMA's numbers show Mooney's 2018 billings at just over 10 million on 14 airplanes or about 763k per unit. I'd bet you are right about cost. As crazy as it seems 763K per unit isn't really enough to make a viable business on at that volume.

I think it is fascinating that Mooney still exists at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 05:40 
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I really enjoyed my Acclaim. Was one heck of a cross country traveling machine.

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 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 06:57 
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I really enjoy my Farmall A with a belly mower. And it still works as well as it ever has.
But - it's not what buyers of brand new compact tractors are looking for.


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