banner
banner

28 Mar 2024, 05:32 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Concorde Battery (banner)



Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next
Username Protected Message
 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:45 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/17/12
Posts: 170
Post Likes: +117
Location: Des Moines, IA
Aircraft: CE-525
Username Protected wrote:

Mooney could probably be certified in utility category with paperwork only. The airframe is as stout as anything in the air with maybe Cessna TTx being close in ability to handle a G load. Mooney's Achilles' heal is the landing gear and always has been. It's not really capable of absorbing any loads and transfers all of them to the spar. Years ago they should have redesigned it.


Same issue with the TTx. Amazing airframe design (after Cessna fixed a lot of the homebuilt issues from the Lancair days), but the gear was an afterthought at best. Columbia intended it to retract and Cessna never fully re-engineered it.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:48 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 05/03/12
Posts: 2118
Post Likes: +557
Location: Wichita, KS
Aircraft: Mooney 201
I think tht 61 knot stall speed is another big hurdle to cross if gross weight is to be increased above 3368 lbs. Not easily solved.

If I were in charge of Mooney, I'd implement a thorough weight savings plan to get the fat out of the airframe. Mooneys are indeed hell-for-stout and we all brag about that, but at some point having an 8 g ultimate strength airframe ought to be good enough, with more payload instead of a 12 or 14 g or whatever it might be today.

Cirrus did an amazing job reducing their structural weight... Mooney and Textron really need to do the same.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 12:54 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/26/16
Posts: 496
Post Likes: +692
Username Protected wrote:
I think tht 61 knot stall speed is another big hurdle to cross if gross weight is to be increased above 3368 lbs. Not easily solved.

If I were in charge of Mooney, I'd implement a thorough weight savings plan to get the fat out of the airframe. Mooneys are indeed hell-for-stout and we all brag about that, but at some point having an 8 g ultimate strength airframe ought to be good enough, with more payload instead of a 12 or 14 g or whatever it might be today.

Cirrus did an amazing job reducing their structural weight... Mooney and Textron really need to do the same.


microaero.com solves it for $1500. Plus IIRC there still was 4knots to spare on the Acclaim I used to fly to begin with. Maybe it was only 2knots. 2knots buys a lot weight.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:07 
Offline


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 09/29/10
Posts: 5681
Post Likes: +4872
Company: USAF Simulator Instructor
Location: Wichita Valley Airport (F14)
Aircraft: Bonanza G35
Maybe Mooney needs to go after a different market. They built this plane in the 80s. Fast, two-place cross country and gentleman acro fun machine. Yes, it sounds like an RV-6 but a certified airplane is a different market. I saw the prototype In civilian colors when they were competing for the USAF contract. Neat airplane.

Attachment:
8C2AD25F-9D1A-4F9C-BCAF-E8F1C813BEA3.jpeg


“This prototype of Mooney's first private venture in the military market flew for the first time late 1982. It was intended as a side-by-side two-seat primary and basic trainer with aerobatic capabilities. It was based on the M20K also known as Model 231. The model was not taken into production.
“There was another private military (ad)venture, the M20T Predator of 1991. That was a two-seat entry-level trainer designed for USAF EFS (Enhanced Flight Screener) competition. The EFS competition was won by the Slingsby T-3. The Predator protoype was a hybrid of parts of M20C, M20E, M22, 201 and new produced parts. It is still registered as N20XT (c/n 28-0001).”


Please login or Register for a free account via the link in the red bar above to download files.

_________________
FTFA RTFM


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:54 
Offline



 Profile




Joined: 05/05/09
Posts: 4946
Post Likes: +4776
Aircraft: G44, C501, C55, R66
I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 13:59 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 01/01/11
Posts: 964
Post Likes: +599
Company: Well, it's UA now
Location: Houston, TX
Aircraft: B-787 & C55
Username Protected wrote:
Maybe Mooney needs to go after a different market. They built this plane in the 80s. Fast, two-place cross country and gentleman acro fun machine. Yes, it sounds like an RV-6 but a certified airplane is a different market. I saw the prototype In civilian colors when they were competing for the USAF contract. Neat airplane.

Attachment:
8C2AD25F-9D1A-4F9C-BCAF-E8F1C813BEA3.jpeg


“This prototype of Mooney's first private venture in the military market flew for the first time late 1982. It was intended as a side-by-side two-seat primary and basic trainer with aerobatic capabilities. It was based on the M20K also known as Model 231. The model was not taken into production.
“There was another private military (ad)venture, the M20T Predator of 1991. That was a two-seat entry-level trainer designed for USAF EFS (Enhanced Flight Screener) competition. The EFS competition was won by the Slingsby T-3. The Predator protoype was a hybrid of parts of M20C, M20E, M22, 201 and new produced parts. It is still registered as N20XT (c/n 28-0001).”


The airframe of one of those two seat canopy Mooneys is at Lakeland in the EAA museum there. Still a neat looking plane. Ok, possible correction. The plane was there but I can't find any indication that it is still there. Was outside on static display but not visible in any Google Maps/Earth pictures and the Museum does not list it as a currently displayed plane.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/MooneyM20TPredatorN20XT.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_M2 ... rN20XT.jpg


Last edited on 11 Nov 2019, 17:49, edited 3 times in total.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:02 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5519
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


I tend to agree. All I see from American manufacturers (with the exception of Cirrus) across the board is lipsticked pigs. I could only roll my eyes when Beech introduced the "King Ranch" KA earlier this year. Gimme a break. I see no Diamonds or Pipistrels here amongst the US GA manufacturers. It's sad, but it's time to move on to innovation. Those who don't, will fall away. You can't expect to sell a $1m piston single designed in the late 40's forever. We'd never accept that in any other part of business, so why in aviation?

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:36 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 10/14/09
Posts: 800
Post Likes: +282
Location: Dallas (KADS)
Aircraft: A36
Username Protected wrote:
Mooney was trying to sell airplanes. Cirrus is selling a lifestyle. O.A. Beech understood that 40 years ago. But like Mooney, nobody has been keeping it fresh. It's only a matter of time before the last Bonanza and Baron are built. And probably not that much time.

I’ve written about this here before. I wandered around mooney’s booth at Oshkosh and looked at every detail of their display. No one approached me to try to sell me one, and I owned a 201 for over a decade. I should be on their short list already I’m already 90% of the way to a sale. Even with the best product in the world, if you’re not selling, I am not buying. No point in buying something that isn’t going to be able to be supported.


You're assuming sales is what's holding Mooney back. From what I've heard, Mooney has had a 6+ month wait to buy a new plane. If it takes 6 months to take delivery, it's time to ramp up production. If Mooney can ramp production, then lack of sales doesn't hold the company back.

Bad form to show up at any trade show and not be ready to show your product, but I suspect production cost is the real challenge.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 14:51 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 02/02/08
Posts: 1580
Post Likes: +1055
Location: Reading, PA
Aircraft: V35, PA28-180
Username Protected wrote:
I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.

I agree with this :sad:


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 20:55 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 12/30/15
Posts: 714
Post Likes: +740
Location: NH; KLEB
Aircraft: M2, erstwhile G58
Username Protected wrote:
I know we are all nostalgic but maybe it's just time to for some of these designs to die off because there's simply a very limited market for $800K single engine airplanes with low useful loads. The market has spoken, people that want a new 4 seater, want a Cirrus.


I tend to agree. All I see from American manufacturers (with the exception of Cirrus) across the board is lipsticked pigs. I could only roll my eyes when Beech introduced the "King Ranch" KA earlier this year. Gimme a break. I see no Diamonds or Pipistrels here amongst the US GA manufacturers. It's sad, but it's time to move on to innovation. Those who don't, will fall away. You can't expect to sell a $1m piston single designed in the late 40's forever. We'd never accept that in any other part of business, so why in aviation?



Because other than Cirrus, no supplier is offering any innovation. And the proof seems to be in the pudding as they have 30% worldwide market share in single-engine pistons.

Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 21:10 
Online


User avatar
 Profile




Joined: 01/16/11
Posts: 1943
Post Likes: +1258
Company: Underground Airways
Location: CYKF Kitchener, Ontario
Aircraft: Mooney M20K 231+
With the exception of Cirrus why is that companies like Diamond and Pipistrel are designed and produced in other countries than the US? Are there legal or financial advantages in Europe that there isn't here?


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 11 Nov 2019, 22:07 
Offline


User avatar
 WWW  Profile




Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 6322
Post Likes: +5519
Location: Hollywood, Los Angeles, CA
Aircraft: Turbo Commander 680V
Username Protected wrote:
With the exception of Cirrus why is that companies like Diamond and Pipistrel are designed and produced in other countries than the US? Are there legal or financial advantages in Europe that there isn't here?


I think it's four-fold:

1. Necessity is the mother of invention. With Avgas prices around $10/gal, it pushed European manufacturers towards diesel, which isn't as heavily taxed for aviation (as they all fawn over the airlines and subsidize that).

2. Eurocontrol charges per mile for their IFR services above 2000kg (4400lbs), this has resulted in a lot of development in the sub-2000kg sector.

3. Simpler Microlight and LSA-type rules.

4. EASA-certification is today easier to achieve than FAA, and since it's reciprocal, it's a backdoor into the US market.

On top of this, I think the US manufacturers became a little complacent. Avgas was cheap and there was no real need to innovate.

_________________
Problem is the intelligent people are full of doubt, while the stupid ones are full of confidence.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 01:21 
Online


 Profile




Joined: 11/30/17
Posts: 1284
Post Likes: +1458
Location: KARR
Aircraft: J3, Twin Commander
Username Protected wrote:
You're assuming sales is what's holding Mooney back. From what I've heard, Mooney has had a 6+ month wait to buy a new plane. If it takes 6 months to take delivery, it's time to ramp up production. If Mooney can ramp production, then lack of sales doesn't hold the company back.

Bad form to show up at any trade show and not be ready to show your product, but I suspect production cost is the real challenge.


Mooney's approach at airventure is an indicator that they don't get it.
GAMA's numbers show Mooney's 2018 billings at just over 10 million on 14 airplanes or about 763k per unit. I'd bet you are right about cost. As crazy as it seems 763K per unit isn't really enough to make a viable business on at that volume.

I think it is fascinating that Mooney still exists at all.


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 05:40 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 07/17/15
Posts: 530
Post Likes: +502
Location: KSRQ
Aircraft: C510
I really enjoyed my Acclaim. Was one heck of a cross country traveling machine.

_________________
Tony


Top

 Post subject: Re: Rumor That All Mooney Employees Furloughed For A Week
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2019, 06:57 
Offline


 Profile




Joined: 11/03/08
Posts: 14524
Post Likes: +22857
Location: Peachtree City GA / Stoke-On-Trent UK
Aircraft: A33
I really enjoy my Farmall A with a belly mower. And it still works as well as it ever has.
But - it's not what buyers of brand new compact tractors are looking for.


Top

Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic  [ 97 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next




You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  

Terms of Service | Forum FAQ | Contact Us

BeechTalk, LLC is the quintessential Beechcraft Owners & Pilots Group providing a forum for the discussion of technical, practical, and entertaining issues relating to all Beech aircraft. These include the Bonanza (both V-tail and straight-tail models), Baron, Debonair, Duke, Twin Bonanza, King Air, Sierra, Skipper, Sport, Sundowner, Musketeer, Travel Air, Starship, Queen Air, BeechJet, and Premier lines of airplanes, turboprops, and turbojets.

BeechTalk, LLC is not affiliated or endorsed by the Beechcraft Corporation, its subsidiaries, or affiliates. Beechcraft™, King Air™, and Travel Air™ are the registered trademarks of the Beechcraft Corporation.

Copyright© BeechTalk, LLC 2007-2024

.AAI.jpg.
.pdi-85x50.jpg.
.jandsaviation-85x50.jpg.
.ssv-85x50-2023-12-17.jpg.
.centex-85x50.jpg.
.midwest2.jpg.
.lucysaviation-85x50.png.
.aeroled-85x50-2022-12-06.jpg.
.tat-85x100.png.
.pure-medical-85x150.png.
.wilco-85x100.png.
.Wentworth_85x100.JPG.
.jetacq-85x50.jpg.
.MountainAirframe.jpg.
.aviationdesigndouble.jpg.
.saint-85x50.jpg.
.temple-85x100-2015-02-23.jpg.
.wat-85x50.jpg.
.cav-85x50.jpg.
.CiESVer2.jpg.
.Latitude.jpg.
.kadex-85x50.jpg.
.Rocky-Mountain-Turbine-85x100.jpg.
.stanmusikame-85x50.jpg.
.kingairacademy-85x100.png.
.sierratrax-85x50.png.
.ABS-85x100.jpg.
.traceaviation-85x150.png.
.one-mile-up-85x100.png.
.avfab-85x50-2018-12-04.png.
.aircraftferry-85x50.jpg.
.SCA.jpg.
.Foreflight_85x50_color.png.
.Wingman 85x50.png.
.bullardaviation-85x50-2.jpg.
.airmart-85x150.png.
.kingairnation-85x50.png.
.Genesys_85x50.jpg.
.gallagher_85x50.jpg.
.daytona.jpg.
.aircraftassociates-85x50.png.
.camguard.jpg.
.shortnnumbers-85x100.png.
.avionwealth-85x50.png.
.ei-85x150.jpg.
.blackwell-85x50.png.
.blackhawk-85x100-2019-09-25.jpg.
.headsetsetc_Small_85x50.jpg.
.bpt-85x50-2019-07-27.jpg.
.Marsh.jpg.
.tempest.jpg.
.planelogix-85x100-2015-04-15.jpg.
.dbm.jpg.
.chairmanaviation-85x50.jpg.
.concorde.jpg.
.boomerang-85x50-2023-12-17.png.
.geebee-85x50.jpg.