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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 14:56 
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Odds of death in an MU-2 with no instrument time, probably on the order of 10-20% for the first year IMO if you are going to use it for the mission of an MU-2, going long distances in variable weather conditions. You seem like a good stick so the odds would probably be down to 3-5% chance of death year one if you stuck to day VFR. Pretty bad odds IMO.

Go buy a Seneca and toss that around for a few hundred hours, you'll have a blast and be a better pilot in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 19:20 
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Pretty eye opening to read everyone's comments! :eek:

I'm instrument rated with a decent amount of IMC time, and very little in the right seat of a 501, but even from my vantage I would agree with what's been said. A plane like this would be a bad place to be if you aren't comfortable flying the gauges, which you really aren't required to do in a Cirrus.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 19:38 
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Username Protected wrote:
Odds of death in an MU-2 with no instrument time, probably on the order of 10-20% for the first year IMO if you are going to use it for the mission of an MU-2, going long distances in variable weather conditions. You seem like a good stick so the odds would probably be down to 3-5% chance of death year one if you stuck to day VFR. Pretty bad odds IMO.

Go buy a Seneca and toss that around for a few hundred hours, you'll have a blast and be a better pilot in the long run.

Not sure where you came up with those odds, but if he stuck with day VFR and got the proper training, his chance of survival in year one is WAY better than 95-97%. More like 99.5 to 99.9%, IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 20:00 
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The aviators that get their Instrument ratings in T-38's are generally are generally people who have been handpicked from the small results of a very strict weeding-out process and then make it through a very difficult program that has a very high washout rate (after being given a zillion dollars worth of training).

I suspect even above-average aviators would have a challenge meeting that bar.

$.02


When my brother-in-law went through pilot training if you did not have a pilot's license prior to the start of training, you had 5 days to learn how to fly a 172, if you made it, the 6th day was T37s.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 20:04 
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I believe that Pat Cannon taught someone to fly in the MU-2. That is they had no flying experience at all.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 21:40 
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I own a -1 MU-2 and love it. It's my "Cirrus" for the mostly local flying I do and 400 mile trips I often make. I make probably 8 cross country trips (1,500nm) a year and it's perfect for that too. Extremely reliable and fast enough. It's efficient enough for flying 30 minute trips down low. It's not hard to fly but it's the only plane I've flown (other than the lancair) that I am never relaxed on take off and landing. It's a man's airplane and needs a pilot. It's not hard to fly but when the power comes off those giant props, there's a lot of drag. It needs to get on step after take off before it starts climbing well too. You need to fly it every week to stay current.

The Citation is so easy to fly and forgiving I think someone could get their private pilots license in it. I could go ten years without flying and hop in one and feel comfortable quickly.
The range is not as good as the Mitsubishi. It burns a ton of fuel that it's decadent to fly it solo or on short flights if you have any care about money and we all do.

Neither airplane breaks very often. The maintenance is cheap for both. The insurance is more expensive on the Mitsubishi. The training costs are about the same for both.

With all this said, don't skip steps. Get a Baron or Meridian and then work your way into one of these machines after getting your instrument rating and flying your Cirrus a few 100 more hours. If you're going to ignore this step then the Citation has a higher likelihood of success and much lower chance of death than an MU-2. You really need a few hundred hours in the instrument system before flying either airplane though. When you fly a turbine, you are expected to fly professionally. This is almost impossible to do without some experience flying a 172 on instruments for a while. On the flip side, you could fly an MU-2 VFR at 17,500 with no instrument rating but I think this would eventually result in a very bad day.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 22:17 
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Silly small buttons on an iPhone. Sorry for the above quote ^^^^. Warning thread hijack...

I found this thread fascinating, and I enjoy the banter and safety first culture on BT. Jonathan, I think everyone clearly has your safety and best interests at heart. I am reading this with such interest because I too am in a similar boat. I have 500 hours, 425 in a PA-32-RT300, steam gauge, which I did my instrument training in just after my private certificate. Great machine but had a third kid a year ago, and the cavernous PA-32 is now tight with 5 bodies and the accoutrements.

I enjoy cloud drilling so I have flown in the system IFR 350+ hours with around 150 under the hood or in actual IMC. Have my MEI, but obtained it this summer and have total 12 hours.

I understand not having an instrument rating is probably the biggest deal for Jonathan, but what’s the logical step up if he were in my shoes? C310, B58, seneca all about the same size, slightly faster but no better in the SUV category that a PA-32 with 1371 useful. Malibu/meridian reaches the flight levels but with less capacity.

Would love a C414, C421, but if training, insurance, fixed costs, and hourly costs are ”nearly“ the same as a some METP, why not step into a METP if capital cost is less of an issue? C441, KA B100 (I love a TPE331)? Clearly I am not ready for an MU2 (although it is my dream airplane), but I found Tarver’s comment interesting about more safety moving to a technologically advanced 501sp. Seems like a guy like me would have to fly with a mentor pilot for 500 hours for something like that to work.

Just trying to buy my last airplane first, and it worked out well in the PA-32 right after my private even though I heard some of the same cautions. With the appropriate training, risk assessment, and risk mitigation, what is the next logical step for a guy like me? Anxiously awaiting the collective response!


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 22:47 
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Company: Sedan Floral, Inc.
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Friends,

Thank you for the many comments and great concern. Perhaps some clarification could bring things into focus.

The lack of IFR or the time I've spent towards the rating is no elephant in the room. It is simply a matter of making it a priority over everything else. The time I have spent IFR/IMC during training has not been difficult. 95 percent of my IFR training has been hand flying the cross country and the approaches.

The bold step of going from SR22 to MU2 isn't made without a lot of consideration. My feeling is time spent in a piston twin is apples and oranges to the MU2. Time in a Meridian still won't count towards the ME rating.

My plan was also to complete the 100 hours of ME time with an instructor in a training environment. If additional time is needed, then continue training and/or find a mentor pilot.

I also don't have any interest in soloing straight into known ice, IMC, at night. I'd rather take it one step at a time.

I do humbly feel gaining a bunch of hours in a cheaper twin is just gaming the system to meet the requirements without actually experiencing the real thing. If I have to think at 300 knots and the unique requirements specific to the MU2, how is a 180 knot twin going to get me there? I'm afraid the time spent will be learning the exact wrong procedures in regards to losing an engine.

Regardless of opinion or wisdom, the insurance may kill the deal. Whether or not I'm a competent pilot, going to train, etc. may be irrelevant if I can't check the right boxes at the underwriter.

_________________
Jonathan Cude
58P (TJ224), SR22, RV-7A, Protech PT-2A
SedanFloral.com


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 23:35 
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The lack of IFR or the time I've spent towards the rating is no elephant in the room. It is simply a matter of making it a priority over everything else. The time I have spent IFR/IMC during training has not been difficult. 95 percent of my IFR training has been hand flying the cross country and the approaches.

How much IFR dual do you have? How close are you to taking the check ride? Have you passed the written?

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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 23:56 
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Username Protected wrote:

The lack of IFR or the time I've spent towards the rating is no elephant in the room. It is simply a matter of making it a priority over everything else. The time I have spent IFR/IMC during training has not been difficult. 95 percent of my IFR training has been hand flying the cross country and the approaches..

I think the ME piston time would be mostly irrelevant. But the lack of IFR experience is relevant. Time spent in the IFR system, flying something higher performance at higher altitudes, dealing with weather, negotiating with ATC, handling reroutes and DP/STARs, etc. WHILE SOLO. Building that experience base takes some time.

To do that, you need to get that IFR ticket and start flying yourself in the system.

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-Jon C.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 04 Nov 2019, 23:57 
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Username Protected wrote:
I believe that Pat Cannon taught someone to fly in the MU-2. That is they had no flying experience at all.

Vince


I bought my A* from Pat two years ago--he impressed me as a great guy and very dedicated to pilots and ga in general.

At the time I had 2800 hrs SE, mostly mooney, but the A* was my first twin flying after getting a weekend Multi Rating in an Apache.

After the A* checkout I asked my instructor at Aerostar World when I would be safe. Don replied, "John, you're on my 'endangered species' list until you get to 50 hours. I'll be keeping an eye out in the news for you until then."


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 00:00 
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How much IFR dual do you have? How close are you to taking the check ride? Have you passed the written?

18.5 hrs IMC
7.8 hrs simulator

Instructor said I satisfactorily covered all maneuvers required for the checkride and needed to acquire the minimum required number of hours.

The written... so I've made it through Calculus, Differential Equations, Spaceflight Dynamics, etc... but damn is the written just pilot hazing???

I am hoping to open a hole in my schedule in the next 7-14 days. 5-7 days later, I plan to have the IFR rating in hand. Scheduling around work or making the rating a priority is the only challenge.

_________________
Jonathan Cude
58P (TJ224), SR22, RV-7A, Protech PT-2A
SedanFloral.com


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 00:07 
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I'm afraid the time spent will be learning the exact wrong procedures in regards to losing an engine.


I was with you until right there. The engine out procedures in a piston twin require far more precision than those in a turbine (though the turbine can still bite just ask the guys at ADS) but they are fundamentally the same. Maintain directional control, maintain proper airspeed, set power, clean up the plane, run the checklist. In that order. It’s the same procedure whether you’re in a Twin Comanche or a Dreamliner.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 00:08 
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Gents...flying complex planes, in complex environments, with low time can be done. It depends on how structured you want to be with training. Most people are probably not willing to dedicate the time and money to do it right but it can be done. The military sends kids out to the aircraft carrier solo with 200 hours in their logbook. There is a price/structure that is unmatched in that extreme scenario but it can be done. I know SFAR/Insurance will play a huge role in the MU-2 equation but with the right mentor pilot, a good simulator, and a lot of money...anything is possible...even skipping the clapped out piston twin. Not all flight time is created equal. 100 hours of sweating to the oldies in an old tired piston twin is not the same as a structured/supervised syllabus.


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 Post subject: Re: WTB: MU2
PostPosted: 05 Nov 2019, 00:14 
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Yeah, the IFR written is way more difficult than the ATP written in my opinion. But it sounds like you are on the right track. Get the ticket and then use the rating all the time, even if it's good weather. Do that for 100 hours and you should be fairly comfortable but remember that flying IFR at 260 knots and 1800 fpm is going to feel a lot different than 160 knots and 800 fpm. You have to be completely comfortable in the SR before you step up.

I still feel like some time in a piston twin would be valuable. You could buy a baron and fly that for a year which would give you some valuable experience and then easily sell it when you are ready to make the next move. Maybe you could go straight to the MU2 but as you said, the insurance man might have other ideas.

Just one data point for you from my experience. I bought my conquest when I had 2000 hours, 1600 multi, and an ATP. Insurance required initial sim school and 10 hours dual in the airplane. I was looking at the MU2 as well because they are amazing machines and probably the least expensive turboprop twin to own and operate. But at the end of the day, I chickened out and went with an airplane that I felt was not going to look for an excuse to kill me if I made a bonehead mistake. I know MU2 pilots love their airplanes and they can be very safe to fly but as a brand new turbine pilot used to sub 200 knots speeds and sub 18,000' altitudes I went with something a little more pilot proof. At the end of the day most of us are weekend warriors and flying an airplane that isn't quite so demanding might be a better choice, at least for the first few years of ownership. It could be a KA90, a Cheyenne, or a Conquest I - doesn't matter. Like I said, just my opinion and everyone's got one so good luck with the process.

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Last edited on 05 Nov 2019, 00:22, edited 1 time in total.

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