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13 Dec 2019, 11:33 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2019, 19:20 
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Joined: 12/29/14
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Location: Brunswick, Ga
Aircraft: PA32RT-300T
Username Protected wrote:
Having made this same choice, I chose the PA32 albeit a Lance. The toga and Bo will be so close in speed, it really should not be the largest factor.

Take your people, add bags, and try to get that into each plane. Pay close attention to the W&B on the Bo. Can you be in balance wheels up to wheels down? The nose baggage on the PA32 is a huge game changer to me. Makes our family trips doable. I was unable to get the Bo in balance without leaving someone or bags on the ground.

The 80-85 Togas are the sweet spot before the reboot PA32s gained a lot of weight.


The two really are not comparable in speed. The older Saratoga I flew (1988) was an honest 155kt ROP airplane and the 2001 was an honest 165kt ROP airplane. The Saratoga is a nice wise useful cabin, but the forward visibility is not as good as the Bonanza, and it flies more like a Cessna, heavy on the controls than a Bonanza. A good 79-90s Bonanza should be a 170kt airplane LOP.


I can run 165kts in my Turbo Lance. I just can’t afford to pay the fuel bill. Only time I do is over open water.

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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 07:13 
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Joined: 08/12/08
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Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Aircraft: '76 A36 TAT TN 550
My 76 A36 with TAT TN 550 has a 1,632 lb useful load so the Saratoga doesn’t carry more in my case.

The A36 is faster, uses less fuel, is better built, handles better and looks better.

But it costs more.

I owned a 78 Arrow III before stepping up. Test flew both the Saratoga and the A36 before making my decision.

Fly them both and see for yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 07:21 
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...but, Jim, your's "holds" less than a Toga. That forward baggage compartment in the Toga is the cat's meow.

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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 09:25 
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Joined: 08/30/10
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Location: Kingston, NY (20N)
Aircraft: 1985 Bonanza F33A
Username Protected wrote:

I can run 165kts in my Turbo Lance. I just can’t afford to pay the fuel bill. Only time I do is over open water.


That’s not even a fair comparison - turbo to NA.


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 09:41 
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Location: Austin, TX (KGTU)
Aircraft: Baron E55 Pitts S-1S
A few years back I flew a Saratoga HP for a small company. Nice airplane with a nice cabin and the forward baggage compartment was excellent for CG issues.

But you asked about handling. The Saratoga handles like a truck and the A36 like a Beechcraft.

If you're strictly going for handling characteristics, buy the A-36.

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Sorry if I repeat what's already been said, I never read all the posts
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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 11:02 
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Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.

Its as slow as a Toga, without the big door, but will carry 1,500lbs. I went through the same process, TOGA/210/A36.

A36 was faster, but the initial purchase price was quite higher than a 210 or Toga/6/Lance. The 210 flies like a truck.

I ended up with a 210, mostly because of initial purchase price. I couldnt really swing the cost of an A36. And the maintenance on all 3 of them I am sure is close.


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 11:47 
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Joined: 10/28/12
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Company: Transworld Business Advisors
Location: Houston, Scottsdale
Aircraft: SR22 lengthy prebuy
Username Protected wrote:
Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.

Its as slow as a Toga, without the big door, but will carry 1,500lbs. I went through the same process, TOGA/210/A36.

A36 was faster, but the initial purchase price was quite higher than a 210 or Toga/6/Lance. The 210 flies like a truck.

I ended up with a 210, mostly because of initial purchase price. I couldnt really swing the cost of an A36. And the maintenance on all 3 of them I am sure is close.


I believe the proper name is CheroLanceaToga.

210 has a lot of appeal but the insurance when I got quotes was much, much higher than a Bonanza, like more than double.


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 11:57 
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Joined: 09/04/09
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Company: Leading Edge Aviation
Location: Doylestown, PA (KDYL)
Aircraft: 1979 Baron 58P
Username Protected wrote:
Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.

Its as slow as a Toga, without the big door, but will carry 1,500lbs. I went through the same process, TOGA/210/A36.

A36 was faster, but the initial purchase price was quite higher than a 210 or Toga/6/Lance. The 210 flies like a truck.

I ended up with a 210, mostly because of initial purchase price. I couldnt really swing the cost of an A36. And the maintenance on all 3 of them I am sure is close.


I believe the proper name is CheroLanceaToga.

210 has a lot of appeal but the insurance when I got quotes was much, much higher than a Bonanza, like more than double.

I think that is because the chance of a gear up due to mechanical failure is significantly higher on a 210 than the others. Pilot error is probably the same on all of them.
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Rick Witt
Baron 58P & King Air B200 GTO
Leading Edge Aviation
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& Destin, FL


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 12:05 
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Username Protected wrote:
Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.
How usable, for people, is the third row in a Cessna 210?


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 12:17 
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I think that is because the chance of a gear up due to mechanical failure is significantly higher on a 210 than the others. Pilot error is probably the same on all of them.


Rick is exactly correct here. The insurers I have spoken with over the last several years have seen a number of landing gear related losses on the 210 specifically - as such some won't quote the model while others have a higher rating for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 12:21 
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Company: Tulsair Beechcraft
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Username Protected wrote:
Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.
How usable, for people, is the third row in a Cessna 210?



Depends on the size of the people......in my limited experience, anyway.
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Todd Lester
Tulsair Beechcraft, Inc.
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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 12:47 
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I'm partial to the A36 for speed, looks, and build quality, but the Saratoga has better useful load, is roomier, and for similar price can get newer plane or better equipped avionics wise. Having no experience in either, I'm trying to understand what people mean by "better handling" on the Beech vs Piper? By contrast, I've read the Saratoga "feels" more stable in IFR weather. Can anyone with experience in both types help me understand this handling issue, and what I would be giving up in upgrading to the Piper? Thank you!


Marty, analogies to cars and trucks are often used to compare the handling of two planes you're considering. Porsche Cayenne (or BMW X5) vs. Chevy Surburban are often used to compare the two. "Drivers" gravitate to the former. "Non drivers" to the latter. The former have that feeling of tightness with throttle, steering and braking inputs being precise, responsive, communicative, connected. The steering feel is slightly "heavier" (i.e., not overly boosted) with no slop in the controls.

The Chevy is none of this. It's big and has a ton of space. Owners care about this and being non drivers don't perceive or even understand just how sloppy and over boosted the steering is ("road feel", what is that? Why would you feel the road?). Everything feels cheap, because it is. It'll be a rattle trap with 50K miles, while the Porsche or BMW will still be tight many years and miles later. The build quality between the two are just night and day.

Haul a bunch of kids spilling juice all over my Cayenne interior? Uh, no. To the Chevy owner, this is called breaking the truck in! Just two different sets of priorities and values. Neither better than the other. Just different.

This analogy fits the A36 vs. Toga. As others have said, fly the two. Just like driving a Cayenne and then stepping into a Suburban, you'll know instantly how they differ and which one is for you.

Regarding the IFR stability, this is not a subjective "feel" thing. Here the two planes are very different re longitudinal stability inherent in their designs. The A36 will not remain straight on its own as easily as the Toga. It will roll more easily and once rolling will keep on rolling unless and until the pilot reacts. The Toga will remain S&L more naturally. Less pilot input needed. The A36 requires the pilot to be proficient hand flying in IMC. The Toga does not demand the same level of proficiency. It's just easier to hand fly in IMC.

While we can say that A36 pilots can use training and technique to fly an A36 just as comfortably as a pilot flying a Toga, and this is absolutely true, the fact of the matter is many IFR pilots don't maintain this level of proficiency because they don't hand fly in IMC often enough. In that sense, the Toga (and its Piper variants, as well as the Cessna's, which share the Toga's longitudinal stability) are often thought of as "safer" IFR platforms for pilots whose IMC hours will fall on the lower end of the time envelope.

Hope this helps.

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Russ N785RW
Things are rarely what they seem, but they're always exactly what they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 13:01 
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Don't rule out the "other" 6 seat airplane - Cessna 210.
How usable, for people, is the third row in a Cessna 210?


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 14:12 
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[/quote]How usable, for people, is the third row in a Cessna 210?[/quote]

Nice pic!

I am 6/2 and my head does touch (not hunched over, but I do have to slouch). I removed my second row seat behind the pilot so lots of leg room for me to slouch.

I do think the TOGA and A36 pic though should show your knees in your mouth as both planes the seats are very low to the floor...... :peace:


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 Post subject: Re: Saratoga vs A36 - Handling Characteristics
PostPosted: 29 Oct 2019, 14:17 
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Username Protected wrote:
I think that is because the chance of a gear up due to mechanical failure is significantly higher on a 210 than the others. Pilot error is probably the same on all of them.


Rick is exactly correct here. The insurers I have spoken with over the last several years have seen a number of landing gear related losses on the 210 specifically - as such some won't quote the model while others have a higher rating for it.


I pay $2,500 for 125k hull value and 100,000 per pax. The 210 gear does require maintaining. There special tools made specifically for it and it is what my mechanic and I spend the most time on each annual. If maintained well it works fine.

The gear was changed significantly in the L model and looks and operates nothing like the gear from before. Every preflight I open the doors, make sure no hydraulic fluid is leaking, make sure that there is hydraulic fluid in the power pack and make sure none of the wires in the wheel wells have come loose.

That being said, the 2 gear ups I personally know of in a 210 were both "oops i forgot". Which you think would be hard since you can look outside and see it :)

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