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23 Feb 2020, 18:45 [ UTC - 5; DST ]


Greenwich AeroGroup



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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 30 Oct 2019, 22:09 
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In the video the guy from Cape Air said that the plane were typically flown by low time pilots and the Lycoming engines had safeguards built in to prevent the pilot from damaging them. Even so, it would be a lot cheaper for a pilot to damage the Lycoming than damaging a turbine. From what I understand, quick turns in a turbine can be a little tricky if you are not careful.

Vince


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 01:09 
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Lol its 2019.
I have flown in airlines running Caravans.




Username Protected wrote:
Don’t think the airline will fly paying pax in single engine anything.

Tecnam/Lycoming built a fine aircraft looks like.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 01:48 
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Username Protected wrote:
Don’t think the airline will fly paying pax in single engine anything.

Tecnam/Lycoming built a fine aircraft looks like.
I was curious about how many airlines (as opposed to charter operators, cargo carriers, police departments and others) were operating Caravans and found this list on Wikipedia FWIW. In the US, it appears Southern Airways Express has 19, Mokulele (recently acquired by Southern Airways) has 14, and Air Choice One has 12. Winning an airline account with an order for perhaps 88 Caravans would seem to be a big deal, so presumably Cessna/Textron pulled out all the stops.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 02:16 
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Those new Lycomings will run mogas. I think that basically closes the gap on JetA vs Avgas discrepancy, especially since CapeAir probably has their own supply of mogas. So for lots of short hops you're probably burning less than half the fuel in the Tecnam... 30 gph vs 70.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 08:57 
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Would the training path to have a pilot ready to be a commercial pilot on one of these piston twins be less than if it was turbine? Or would the pool of experienced candidates be higher? Meaning if I own a Baron and have my commercial license already with 1,800 hours, what would I have to do to fly for Cape Air? And by the way, I am not making points here I am asking legitimate questions as I do not know the answers.

Also, the cape air around here that goes from Owensboro KY to St. Louis a turbine would not have enough time or distance to get into the altitudes it is most efficient in. I see this cape air plane head to St. Louis all the time under 10K feet.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 09:15 
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Username Protected wrote:
Those new Lycomings will run mogas. I think that basically closes the gap on JetA vs Avgas discrepancy, especially since CapeAir probably has their own supply of mogas. So for lots of short hops you're probably burning less than half the fuel in the Tecnam... 30 gph vs 70.


Wait a sec, MOGAS? 380 HP per side and running MOGAS in an airliner?

Lycoming will have quite a market once the STCs allow broad installation. Gonna be $$$$

--paul


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 09:20 
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Username Protected wrote:
Meaning if I own a Baron and have my commercial license already with 1,800 hours, what would I have to do to fly for Cape Air?.


If you have 1,800 hours, a multi commercial, a decent amount of multi time,and a heartbeat, all you need to do to fly for cape air is send them a resume, I'd expect a call immediately. They pretty routinely hire guys with less than 1000 hours and a wet commercial multi with little multi time, so I'm sure your resume would stand out. I am also almost certain they also start out paying $12/hr, as that is MA's minimum wage.

Also, don't take this post to be me bashing Cape Air, I fly with them 6+ times a year, it is super convenient and cheap as hell.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 10:25 
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Turbines do not fare well on the short hops that are Cape Air’s bread and butter, ie HYA-ACK, which is a 10 min flight, and super short turn around. Every time someone has tried to compete with them in Caravans, they have failed.


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 17:48 
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Mogas? I dont think so. Quality is too variable and it stinks all over.
Jetfuel will cost 1/2 price of Avgas in bulk so cost will be the same.
Lets see how that works for them.




Username Protected wrote:
Those new Lycomings will run mogas. I think that basically closes the gap on JetA vs Avgas discrepancy, especially since CapeAir probably has their own supply of mogas. So for lots of short hops you're probably burning less than half the fuel in the Tecnam... 30 gph vs 70.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 17:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Lets see how that works for them.



Well it's worked for 30+ years so far....


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 31 Oct 2019, 17:53 
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Username Protected wrote:
Mogas? I dont think so. Quality is too variable and it stinks all over.
Jetfuel will cost 1/2 price of Avgas in bulk so cost will be the same.
Lets see how that works for them.


You think they don’t already have a good idea of how that works for them? :scratch:


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 21:57 
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Now here's the sad part. I was aware of Cape Air's search for replacement planes over ten years ago. This is how it went.

Cape Air went to Cessna and said, hey, we love our 402's. Would you build us 50 brand new ones? You make the spares, you have the tools, certainly you could build us new 402's now, and more in the future.

Cessna said no, how about buying Caravans? Cape Air said "we have 20-30 minute flights, sure, the jet A is cheaper than avgas, but the PT6 engines will accumulate too many cycles and kill us with early disc replacements $$$$. We will lose money on that alone."

Cessna said, oh well.

Cape Air then went to Piper and said, hey, could you build us 50 new Navajo Chieftains? They would be even better than the 402's we are operating". Piper said, no, we lost or destroyed the Navajo tooling, and we don't want to recreate it.

So Cape Air STILL needed a replacement for their rapidly aging 402s. (This is in 2008.) They shopped around to a few more companies.

Tecnam said...hell yes, we will build you a brand new design for your needs.

And here we are.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 02 Nov 2019, 22:56 
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Great story. I think Tecnam is a really cool company. Their planes are really well designed, spacious and well built.

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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 13:56 
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Username Protected wrote:
Now here's the sad part. I was aware of Cape Air's search for replacement planes over ten years ago. This is how it went.

Cape Air went to Cessna and said, hey, we love our 402's. Would you build us 50 brand new ones? You make the spares, you have the tools, certainly you could build us new 402's now, and more in the future.

Cessna said no, how about buying Caravans? Cape Air said "we have 20-30 minute flights, sure, the jet A is cheaper than avgas, but the PT6 engines will accumulate too many cycles and kill us with early disc replacements $$$$. We will lose money on that alone."

Cessna said, oh well.

Cape Air then went to Piper and said, hey, could you build us 50 new Navajo Chieftains? They would be even better than the 402's we are operating". Piper said, no, we lost or destroyed the Navajo tooling, and we don't want to recreate it.

So Cape Air STILL needed a replacement for their rapidly aging 402s. (This is in 2008.) They shopped around to a few more companies.

Tecnam said...hell yes, we will build you a brand new design for your needs.

And here we are.


I think I heard CA also pursued buying the 402 design from Cessna so they could build it themselves. Or maybe that was just a theory.

And didn't Cessna just quasi-announce a piston twin for light cargo that was much like the Tecnam, much to late for Cape Air?


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 Post subject: Re: Tecnam P2012 Traveller
PostPosted: 03 Nov 2019, 14:08 
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SkyCourier?
Looks like PT6 power.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_408_SkyCourier

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