28 Mar 2024, 04:46 [ UTC - 5; DST ]
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 13 Jun 2022, 10:42 |
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Joined: 05/01/14 Posts: 8705 Post Likes: +13324 Location: Операционный офис КГБ
Aircraft: TU-104
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Username Protected wrote: The Citation wasn't radically new technology for Cessna. It was based heavily on their existing T-37 military trainer.
Beech already was producing twin turboprops. The Starship was a twin turboprop with some new aerodynamic and construction ideas. But at the end of the day, it's still a twin turboprop.
You are WAY underestimating how much design work goes into an aircraft beyond just the choice of power plant. You are also way underestimating how much goes into creating a successful aircraft line besides the design work.
_________________ Be kinder than I am. It’s a low bar. Flight suits = superior knowledge
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 13 Jun 2022, 11:53 |
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Joined: 04/07/18 Posts: 100 Post Likes: +38 Location: KMRY
Aircraft: Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: The reason these small startups are aiming for short range is that's all they can do. And right now, short range electric aircraft are a solution in search of a problem. If we REALLY wanted short-range limited payload VTOL aircraft buzzing all over our cities, the sky would be dark with R22s. There just isn't a massive need for 30-50 mile two seat aircraft, no matter what you see in the pitch deck from the electric airplane company. Agree that the short range is simply because that's what currently is feasible. There are a whole lot more problems far further up the list than electric airplanes if we ever solve that battery energy density problem. For demand, my feeling is that all these companies hope to create a whole new market here once they make this available... clearly none of the investment here is justified if they're just looking to capture part of the current heli market. Whether that's justified or not, who knows. Some venture capital seems to believe so, but we'll see in this current market whether they will be able to keep raising money.
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 13 Jun 2022, 12:52 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2512 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: The reason these small startups are aiming for short range is that's all they can do. And right now, short range electric aircraft are a solution in search of a problem. If we REALLY wanted short-range limited payload VTOL aircraft buzzing all over our cities, the sky would be dark with R22s. There just isn't a massive need for 30-50 mile two seat aircraft, no matter what you see in the pitch deck from the electric airplane company. The Lilium and similar aircraft are a very different concept from an R-22. The eVTOL concept ultimately envisions a pilotless craft being flown by computer control on electronic "highways" in the sky. The Lilium is designed to be quieter than a helicopter. Lilium's 36 ducted fans mean much higher reliability than a single-engine piston helicopter and therefore greater safety margin when operating into crowded urban areas. So you can't simply say that because the sky isn't filled with R-22's ferrying people around a gridlocked urban area that there is no market for an eVTOL aircraft.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 13 Jun 2022, 13:19 |
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Joined: 02/15/21 Posts: 2512 Post Likes: +1240
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Username Protected wrote: The Citation wasn't radically new technology for Cessna. It was based heavily on their existing T-37 military trainer.
Beech already was producing twin turboprops. The Starship was a twin turboprop with some new aerodynamic and construction ideas. But at the end of the day, it's still a twin turboprop.
You are WAY underestimating how much design work goes into an aircraft beyond just the choice of power plant. You are also way underestimating how much goes into creating a successful aircraft line besides the design work. Matt, I'm not denying that a lot of money goes into designing a new plane. What I'm saying is that when established companies decide to pump a lot of money into a new design, that new design is usually not radically different or for a radically different market than their existing products.
For example, Boeing pretty much "bet the farm" on the 747. It cost a huge amount of money to develop. If it had failed, Boeing likely would have gone bankrupt. However, in the final analysis, the 747 was basically a super-sized 707: a four-engined turbojet aircraft designed to carry passengers between conventional airports. So nothing really radical other than the huge size and some advanced automation.
Boeing also spent a ton of money developing the 787 (which it may possibly never recover). Yet, the 787 is at the end of the day the next logical step in Boeing's line of twin jets.
_________________ Aviate, Navigate, Communicate, Administrate, Litigate.
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 14 Jun 2022, 16:45 |
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Joined: 06/17/14 Posts: 4891 Post Likes: +1859 Location: KJYO
Aircraft: C-182, GA-7
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...and look at the engineering marvel of the Airbus A380. Then look at the profitability, of the aircraft, to the manufacturer. Apparently, when everything is in place and all the seats and cargo crannies are filled the aircraft is rather profitable for the operators. However, the initial acquisition cost for a single aircraft is greater than the GDP of about 7 countries. However, some will argue that some countries are territories.
I do wish the Lilium "jet" nothing but great success and safety. However, my fear is that while it is an engineering marvel it will not be profitable for the manufacturer.
We all know how to make $1Million in Aviation - Start with $5Million!
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 30 Sep 2022, 18:57 |
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Joined: 12/10/07 Posts: 30418 Post Likes: +10530 Location: Minneapolis, MN (KFCM)
Aircraft: 1970 Baron B55
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Username Protected wrote: Except the canard never got out of stall/power-as-lift mode, no? Telltales flopping about the whole time and engines pointed 30 degrees down. Same for the main wing. Maybe they didn't want to go all the way up on the first flight?
_________________ -lance
It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
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Post subject: Re: Lilium "Jet" flies Posted: 29 May 2023, 01:13 |
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Joined: 10/29/14 Posts: 7 Post Likes: +4
Aircraft: BE95
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The ducted fans draw air over the wings. This creates the relative wind that makes wings fly. The fan units are paired to those on the opposite side wings such that failure on one side will also cause the opposite side wing fans to reduce power thus preventing asymmetric thrust and improving controllability. Mechanically, the design should be safer for passenger operations when compared to all the other designs that have multiple exposed propellor blades: Exposed propellors and civilian passengers = meat grinder.
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