BeechTalk - BT - Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 17:25

Username Protected wrote:

Flight Safety used to have a 210 sim program. I think they sold it to another company and then it disappeared. It was a great program.

SimCom Dallas had one. I do not know what happened after they shutdown the Dallas location.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 22:46

Username Protected wrote:

Hi Lawson,

I don't think you're going to have a good GA experience owning a P210. The engine installation is pretty marginal. It's going to run hot and it doesn't climb very well. The marginal engine installation is going to result in a lot of maintenance headaches. It's not that fast and isn't that fun to fly. If it doesn't have air conditioning, I cannot possibly stress enough how miserable it will be to fly. The pressurization differential is not so great either so you're going to be using oxygen a lot. Regular 210 is a pretty good airplane BTW!

I really wish I could talk you out of this as your first GA airplane. I feel there are much better airplanes out there that you'd enjoy owning.

An older Malibu or a Lancair IV-P would be a much better choice if you're looking for a pressurized single. Unfortunately, the price point of the P210 makes it seem pretty appealing but that's a trap I don't recommend falling for.

Mike

Only P210s I’m looking at have the Vitatoe conversion for the reasons you mentioned.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 22:52

Username Protected wrote:

Lawson,
Welcome back to GA. I suspected you were military trained by your experience, and you confirmed it, and I am going to guess you are still flying with the USAF/USN/USMC, what ever the case You are experiencing exactly what I did when I returned to GA after flying fighters for 10 years with the USAF. Basically you get almost no credit for you training. There is next to NO understanding in the insurance business about the level of training you have undergone. They only seem to care about one thing, hours in type (retract and multi being the big ones). Just a sad fact. I know, I flew fighters for 26 years and basically the insurance industry could have cared less. They are, for the most part, completely ignorant of specific type training that is offered by owners groups like the American Bonanza Society or the Cessna Pilots Association. You mention these organizations to most underwriters and they seem to be puzzled, almost clueless. Sad fact is their businesses could save a lot of money if they bothered to do more careful actuary analysis of what type of training individuals they are insuring have.
Here are a few hints. If you are still in the military, you currently do very extensive annual training just to do your job, so take credit for it. I do an annual skull fracture with my major airline and you can bet I get credit for it from my insurance company, and the FAA.
Find a good broker, and do not contact the major underwriters directly. Have a frank conversation with said broker and let them shop insurance coverage for you. Its a twisted business and if you contact the major underwriters yourself, you kind of screw yourself.
High altitude endorsement is kind of a joke for a military guy. Most pilots have NEVER experienced altitude chamber training like you have, let alone do it every couple of years. which the military requires you to do. Probably why we still have fools failing to put on the O2 masks and dying due to hypoxia. I know many airline pilots who have never been to the altitude chamber and it kind of baffles my mind.
Bottom line, its a different world, but since they are writing the insurance documents, you kind of have to play by their rules. That being said, you should fight for credit for the training you have had.
Find a good broker who UNDERSTANDS military training, then find a good type specific instructor in the aircraft you are interested in. For you, consider joining the Cessna Pilot's Association as a mandatory move. They have very specific training for the C/P210 and these owner organizations are absolutely invaluable to the owner/operator. They pay back many times the cost of subscription in owner benefits.

Chris C

Thanks Chris, good advice and perspective. This is the heart of the frustration.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 22:53

Username Protected wrote:

Fwiw, the big boys self insure, aka go naked. It's better financially for you. If you run the same math the insurance companies do you can prove it.

I’m just a little guy.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 22:57

Username Protected wrote:

[quote="Lawson Cass" I’m good BTW; chamber and ROBD current and don’t need YouTube as my refresher.

Again, if the performance is nothing special... why the type rating style training.

Lawson, I would offer for your thought process that the "performance is nothing special" is one of the big reasons that the insurance companies may require it.

I've done a fair amount of transition training for "jet guys" moving into older piston airplanes. (in fairness, *not* P210s). One of the key things that requires a "mindset shift" is the *lack* of performance. Sometimes the adaptation takes a bit of time.

Example: engine out procedures in a multi-engine jet...vs. engine out procedures in a piston twin. You don't just pitch up and go....you lower the nose, go through the drill, and aim for the lowest/softest thing you can see.

(yes, I'm aware a P210 is a single).

More than one highly qualified military (jet) guy has come to grief in a piston plane. I would suggest re-reading Doug R.'s post.

Good luck with the transition.[/quote]

“Pitch up and go,” unfamiliar with that critical action procedure. More like Zoom, Stores-Jett, Eject. Not sure how that works in a Cessna though.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 25 Sep 2019, 23:07

Putting this thread to bed: P210s are expensive to insure right now. Some underwriters mandate training, all have different requirements and all have different open Pilot minimums. Bottom Line, you can insure a Cirrus with 1/3 higher hull value for 1/3 less insurance cost with practically no training. Capability comes at a cost.

Deal didn’t work out anyway so the hunt continues...

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Sep 2019, 00:43

Lawson,
I have owned 3 P210s and have over 3000 hours in them. Mine have all had the stock engine, although my current '83 model is a little different due to a different turbo controller set up than the earlier two. All three were intercooled. I feel the P210 is the least expensive pressurized airplane you can own, but it is not inexpensive. If you get an engine that was assembled properly and flown with a close eye on cylinder temperatures you will have a good experience. My first P210 had an engine overhauled by West Star and it had 1200 hours on it when I sold it with good compressions, oil use at a quart in 10 hours and no cylinder work and no issues. It is possible. My current engine has had all six cylinders replaced over its life of 800 hours since factory reman. It finally has all cylinders with compressions over 70 and oil use is a quart in 10 hours. The high time cylinders have 550 hours, the low time ones 200 hours. I will never buy another factory engine. Since the P210 is usually flown higher than other 210s since oxygen is not needed, the accessories (vacuum pumps and alternators) run hotter and need replacement more frequently. The cabin altitude on a P210 is 10000ft at FL200. The plane is not a strong climber, 5-600FPM with acceptable CHTs, the '82 and later models do a little better due to the -AF engine and bigger cowl flaps. You need to look at the tail on any 210 you consider, be sure all the service kits (125 and 126) are installed and that the trailing edges are corrosion free, or better, replaced with the newer ones without the foam stiffener inside. Be sure and look for spar carry through corrosion as this can render the airframe very expensive to fix. There is more, but in my opinion, the P210 does an awful lot for the money and pressurization adds comfort on long trips. It can get you to thinking it will do things you shouldn't try though. It is not an all weather airplane. You can deal with thin layers of ice in a FIKI aircraft, but it climbs slowly so your exposure is greater so you have to have solid outs if you are going to fly when ice is present. I live in the Pacific Northwest and deal with ice 9 months of the year. I haven't cancelled a lot of trips, but I have cancelled some, especially when anything over light icing is reported and the freezing level is all the way to the ground. It is also a single, and a hard working single at that, so choose your terrain that you fly over carefully. There really isn't anything that will do what a P210 will do for the money, but be aware that that capability and comfort come at a price. I feel it is worth it since I cannot afford a twin turboprop.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Sep 2019, 00:56

Username Protected wrote:

Putting this thread to bed: P210s are expensive to insure right now. Some underwriters mandate training, all have different requirements and all have different open Pilot minimums. Bottom Line, you can insure a Cirrus with 1/3 higher hull value for 1/3 less insurance cost with practically no training. Capability comes at a cost.

Deal didn’t work out anyway so the hunt continues...

This doesn’t entirely match my recent experience but close enough.

Biting my tongue on some other comments above.
Sometimes I wish everyone could see the the qualifications of all the pilots that call us having had a bad day.
Not all were “fools”. A great majority had a resume like you, or me or any of us here.

That FAA list of hazardous attitudes, silly as it sometimes reads, tends to be pretty accurate.

Tj

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Sep 2019, 07:20

Username Protected wrote:

Putting this thread to bed: P210s are expensive to insure right now. Some underwriters mandate training, all have different requirements and all have different open Pilot minimums. Bottom Line, you can insure a Cirrus with 1/3 higher hull value for 1/3 less insurance cost with practically no training. Capability comes at a cost.

Deal didn’t work out anyway so the hunt continues...

This doesn’t entirely match my recent experience but close enough.

Biting my tongue on some other comments above.
Sometimes I wish everyone could see the the qualifications of all the pilots that call us having had a bad day.
Not all were “fools”. A great majority had a resume like you, or me or any of us here.

That FAA list of hazardous attitudes, silly as it sometimes reads, tends to be pretty accurate.

Tj

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Sep 2019, 11:21

Im wondering if a pressurized Twin may be more of a solution.

Less or equal capital cost; Some with more useful load and climb/cruise performance, with just a little more in fuel costs.

I found it was a wash for me to get an NA-twin rather than a T-210 and the fuel increase was incremental. (19gph vs 15 and 185 vs 190kts) And its a lot roomier.

Just spit' ball'n.

good luck with the hunt. It's all part of informed ownership.

Username Protected · **Posted:** 26 Sep 2019, 15:57

Username Protected wrote:

I’d stick the tubes in my nose if my tail was sticking in the gulfstream in the low 20s if I could keep my CHTs under control. I’ll admit that I’ve not spent any time in the flight levels turning a prop.

Cessna P210 insurance annual training requirement - WTF?!