I’m seriously considering a P210, it’s the best fit for my mission, but 3 underwriters are now mandating annual training. Along with that, insurance is about 2% of hull value.

What is going on in this industry? It isn’t a citation or 737 Max after all...

Background: commercial, instrument, ASEL, AMEL, 1500 hours, 1300 jet (single pilot), 100 turboprop.

I was told one time (about a Malibu) that since it was pressurized they expected you to be in the flight levels more. A Malibu and my Mooney are both certified to 25,000 and that led to the discussion comparing the training requirements. I guess flying high has the potential to be a little more difficult. It “is” farther to fall

Premiums are always going to be near 2% of hull value.

The difference with the P model will likely hold 6 expensive passengers; just like a citation. Lesser Aircraft like mine dont have executives or CEO's (even of small companies) in them.

in the fine print, they should have included a requirement for High Altitude endorsement and for supplemental O2 at least for the crew. If there isnt and you dont, please consider keeping one primed for the pilot and know how to use it (just like a citation).

Also consider a pulse oximeter to monitor your O2 level. A cabin leak can be slow and insidious.

Imagine dealing with a loss of cabin pressure at altitude while still flying the plane. Just posted a video of task saturation by Flight Chops in the Training forum.

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On the performance side; I recommend joining a Cessna Pilots board. CPS has a number of P210 pilots with loads of experience and who would be glad to brief you on the ups/downs of ownership and flying quirks. #1 is that the P210 is complex but doesnt do all of them in great fashion. Its not that fast except at altitude, but getting there is a little slower than you would like. It seems the turbo isnt up to the task of feeding both the cabin and the engine.

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Lastly. All 210s without struts will likely face an AD hunt for spar-carry through corrosion and stress cracks. There have been enough incidents of inflight breakup that inspections are warranted.

None of that explains annual training which should have nothing to do with the “value” of passengers, the service ceiling, the 5000 hour AD inspection (which should be a lender issue perhaps more than insurance).

Not one broker asked about physiological training, I’m good BTW; chamber and ROBD current and don’t need YouTube as my refresher.

Again, if the performance is nothing special... why the type rating style training.

I think its because the majority of P210 owners dont have anywhere near your flying credentials or experience. At best they may have 1000 hours in a 182 or possibly another HP complex.

I also think there is a recent trend in requiring recurrent training for ANY HP complex. Its a "fashion" trend among risk averse underwriters who are hoping to pad the actuarial table; a process that doesnt work btw. For the most part, GA recurrent training doesnt achieve the goal set out. Pilots continue to do stall spin accidents even though there is clear evidence why its occurring. There was even a thread on BT where a lot of pilots were adamant that there was no need to fly a pattern at anything above 1.3 x Vso.

lastly; The GA insurance industry is a mess; with fewer and fewer underwriters and brokers.

Ask yourself; If you were writing insurance policies; what pilot/plane would be the model of low risk? What combination would be the worst?

The 210 has some jet like properties. Holds more than 4..can be pressurized...is comparatively fast and comparatively slippery. My sense is it has killed more than the average piston single for these reasons. I am not shocked.

On the other side of the coin, a Lancair Evolution owner told me today that his insurance carrier had inexplicably DROPPED the requirement for annual training. Of course the Evolution is also pressurized, and an amateur built turboprop to boot. Head scratching.

What did the various insurance brokers say when you asked the question? I don’t always agree with what they say but they always tell me, least that then given me something to negotiate with them.

Andrew

A link to that thread, please? This, I've got to read.

My presurized aerostar....
Inital: Specific type training with details to be approved by Insurance.
1st renewal Annual Training.
2nd Renewal (Bi-annual training) (IE I got to skip a year)
4th Renewal ??? Don't know yet

Total rate about 2% of hull.

I'm Commercial MEL,SEL,SES,Glider, Instrument, A+P and just under 2000 hrs.
I had about 300hrs twin time when I bought the airplane.

Pressurized, FIKI, six seats. These were marketed/sold as all weather machines, which of course they are not. But they are traveling machines and are more apt to be flown long distances with higher pax loads across multiple weather systems.

For the most part, pressurized piston singles (ie P210 & Pa46) have always required annual recurrent training by the underwriters. The soft insurance market from 2007-2018 saw an erosion of both premium and underwriting discipline as more and more underwriters entered the marketplace and competed to write the same number of risks.

I think insurance terms now are probably in line with where they were 10 years ago, and are almost certainly more favorable today than in 2002-2006. The firming of the markets is part of the normal ebb and flow of the insurance cycle, and after some time it too shall pass, only to be repeated again.

I do love the P210, I grew up reading Richard Collins and all the columns he wrote about his flights in that plane. Even had a poster of one on my wall in my room when I was a 10 yr old in 1980. Have always wanted one but just could not make the numbers work. Maybe someday. Good luck with your purchase

When I was looking at ways of getting back into GA I was surprised by the lack of training on some aircraft, kick the tires, fly these speeds, don’t get slow in the final turn...qualified. Lots of accident reports to support more training and type specific training.

My frustration is 3 fold.

1. Some quotes at 12 months, some at 24 months with no explanation.
2. The definition of training is very vague, “ground and flight,” “complete formal ground and flight training at a school acceptable by the company,” does that mean 1 day going over the POH with a CFII? 2 days with sim training of emergency procedures?
3. What is an acceptable school/course and where are they, I’ve found little online.

I’ve read every P210 report from the Aviation Safety Network website, the good news is that not all accidents were fatal, the bad news is that pilot error/decision making is still the predominate root cause.

Which brings me to a new stage of the grief that set in yesterday.

Anyone have a good reference to an Insurance approved P210 school or CFI? I’ve heard Chuck Mcgill is the best but he’s in San Diego. I’m in Rhode Island but Phoenix works too.

Denial.....Anger....time to bargain.

Unfortunately not in Phoenix or Rhode Island, but Ken Maples is a CFII in Colorado who is a long time owner of a P210.
https://alpineflighttraining.com/our-instructors

Insuring any pressurized aircraft will pretty much have an annual training requirement of some sort these days. It’s not particularly new, that I can tell. I’m almost surprised that you’re surprised.

Frankly, it’s not that stupid. Just do an annual recurrent. What training is specified, anyway? An annual “BFR”, type specific training, or...?

What insurance hoops did you have to jump through to get into a tprop and jet with a basically wet ppl?